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Saipan - Who was right?

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Poll Question: Who was correct in their actions?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horsebox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Also, from recall Mother Teresa spent a lot of her time in hospitals.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cabra Hoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by ShamtheRam ShamtheRam wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

As stated Keane said he was injured yet I saw an interview with him recently where he said Fergie didnt want him playing any games for The EIRE and would constantly try to get him to withdraw from squads.

We all know Fergie made him pull out of the away  leg and it nearly cost us.

Even if that is true. Is it good management to throw that at a player in front of his team mates.  No.  Keane was bang out of order but Mick also showed he didn’t have the skill sets for managing a world class talent who can tough to manager. 


IMO Mick is a very fair man.  Maybe he could have handled McGrath, Aldrige and Irwin better but his intentions were always from a  good place.

Confronting Keane I would forgive him for.  He put up with so much disrespect and sh*t from Keane over a decade, not just a few days.  Not turning up for squads without a phone call, pulling out of numerous games with 'injuries'.  Slating fellow players in tv interviews...IT was the final straw.  Mick had given him so much leeway and Keane threw it back in his face.

Keane was 90%+ in the wrong.  Slating his team mates and manager in a newspaper interview on the eve of the World Cup. Yeah that was a good idea alright.

Since Keane sl*gged off his team mates and not just his manager there needed to be a clear the air meeting.  If McCarthy had gone to him in private what would that have solved?  Keane had made bad blood with a lot of players from the interview and a private meeting would not have resolved that.  It would have been festering until there was a physical altercation in training or a match between Keane and some of the other players.

IMO the team breathed a sigh of relief once he was gone.  Yeah we missed him but other players raised their games to unprecedented levels in his absence.

Keane was an arsehole as a player.  He would come into Ireland camps and not talk to anybody, relay messages to Mick Byrne and would constantly be grumpy and show disrespect.  He roomed on his own when others had roomates.  IT was definitely in Keane's mind ''me and them''.

Even in his 1st book Keane says about Saipan  ''I went to the gym where I met David Connolly (and some other player).  I didnt know David and I got to know him a  little better as we chatted in the gym''.  This is a squad member that he and Keane would have been in together for 6 years!

Even Bertie says it there in the documentary.  In Dublin airport Keane was on his own looking out the window not wanting to talk to anyone. He was in terrible mood long before the gear not arriving.  My own hunch was he was off the drink and couldn't handle seeing other lads going out on the beer.  I'd say that was a struggle and then as been stated before Man Utd's bad end to the season really ate at him especially the Champions League semi final. 

It was all on Keane.
I can't sit here and listen to this. This is a man who doesn't showboat like Niall Quinn. Who actually goes to the hospital to visit sick children. This is a man who is family man, he is a credit to his country and to his family. He's a gentleman, he's a class act and he stands up to bullies.  I'm not going to listen to him be called a thug by you.
Yep, McCarthy and the other players were blessed to have Keane in the team otherwise they wouldn't have got within an asses roar of qualifying. McCarthy is a big headed git who who's ego wouldn't allow him be in the shadow of the teams star player at the World Cup. Keane was equally as culpable and should have been cleverer. Other issues going on with Keane pushed him over the edge and his attitude was not acceptable. Players are all self centred easily forgetting Keane part in getting them there in first place when it suited them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trap junior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 7:29pm
Anyone see the video of Keane interrupting Souness today?  Jesus he wouldn't let Souness speak and kept shouting him down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 7:35pm
Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

Originally posted by Fitz Fitz wrote:

Any reasonable person who has ever had to answer to a manager/boss knows who was right.

Skipped the 2nd leg due to injury but managed to play a full game 2 days later. Do me a favour in the words of the man himself.


Do yourself a favour, Einstein, and read my post again because you’ve got it arse-ways. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 7:38pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Fitz Fitz wrote:

Originally posted by B6 6HE B6 6HE wrote:

Originally posted by Fitz Fitz wrote:

Any reasonable person who has ever had to answer to a manager/boss knows who was right.

Mick made mistakes. Should have done things behind closed doors man to man. 


Agreed, although I’m sure he was pretty f**king exasperated with it all by that stage. 

Keane was, and will always be, wrong. 

But mick was wrong also.  It’s not good when an employee using
Your analogy has higher standards that his manger and is getting no where with raising the issues.  Keane drove far more changes in standards than mick did. That’s not a healthy situation as it leads to the player acting like he is the manager.  McCarthy should have been well ahead of this months ago.  But Keane was also bang out of order with his interviews sl*gging players on eve of World Cup.  Like Ronaldo with Piers Morgan. 


I agree to a certain extent re: Mick but he was never going to be able to win with Keane who was disrespectful from the off and did all he could to undermine his manager and his teammates - when ye tried that at United he got the boot. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by decky_eire decky_eire wrote:

I think Mccarthy should have buried his feelings on the Iran second leg, what was he doing bring them up in Saipan i cannot understand, talk about picking your battles.


You’re leaving out quite a bit there regarding what happened in the build-up to that incident.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 7:46pm
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

As stated Keane said he was injured yet I saw an interview with him recently where he said Fergie didnt want him playing any games for The EIRE and would constantly try to get him to withdraw from squads.

We all know Fergie made him pull out of the away  leg and it nearly cost us.

Even if that is true. Is it good management to throw that at a player in front of his team mates.  No.  Keane was bang out of order but Mick also showed he didn’t have the skill sets for managing a world class talent who can tough to manager. 


IMO Mick is a very fair man.  Maybe he could have handled McGrath, Aldrige and Irwin better but his intentions were always from a  good place.

Confronting Keane I would forgive him for.  He put up with so much disrespect and sh*t from Keane over a decade, not just a few days.  Not turning up for squads without a phone call, pulling out of numerous games with 'injuries'.  Slating fellow players in tv interviews...IT was the final straw.  Mick had given him so much leeway and Keane threw it back in his face.

Keane was 90%+ in the wrong.  Slating his team mates and manager in a newspaper interview on the eve of the World Cup. Yeah that was a good idea alright.

Since Keane sl*gged off his team mates and not just his manager there needed to be a clear the air meeting.  If McCarthy had gone to him in private what would that have solved?  Keane had made bad blood with a lot of players from the interview and a private meeting would not have resolved that.  It would have been festering until there was a physical altercation in training or a match between Keane and some of the other players.

IMO the team breathed a sigh of relief once he was gone.  Yeah we missed him but other players raised their games to unprecedented levels in his absence.

Keane was an arsehole as a player.  He would come into Ireland camps and not talk to anybody, relay messages to Mick Byrne and would constantly be grumpy and show disrespect.  He roomed on his own when others had roomates.  IT was definitely in Keane's mind ''me and them''.

Even in his 1st book Keane says about Saipan  ''I went to the gym where I met David Connolly (and some other player).  I didnt know David and I got to know him a  little better as we chatted in the gym''.  This is a squad member that he and Keane would have been in together for 6 years!

Even Bertie says it there in the documentary.  In Dublin airport Keane was on his own looking out the window not wanting to talk to anyone. He was in terrible mood long before the gear not arriving.  My own hunch was he was off the drink and couldn't handle seeing other lads going out on the beer.  I'd say that was a struggle and then as been stated before Man Utd's bad end to the season really ate at him especially the Champions League semi final. 

It was all on Keane.


Great post. Add to that the fact that Keane had a drink problem and it was reported that he was struggling at the time - I even saw a tweet/post by Declan Lynch recently commenting on how that was common-knowledge amongst Irish football journalists. Keane’s performance and body-language in the Nigerian friendly (the day before they left) was noticeably poor. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

Yep, McCarthy and the other players were blessed to have Keane in the team otherwise they wouldn't have got within an asses roar of qualifying. McCarthy is a big headed git who who's ego wouldn't allow him be in the shadow of the teams star player at the World Cup. Keane was equally as culpable and should have been cleverer. Other issues going on with Keane pushed him over the edge and his attitude was not acceptable. Players are all self centred easily forgetting Keane part in getting them there in first place when it suited them.


Lol, there’d be a very clear winner in a ‘battle of egos’ between those two 😏 


Edited by Fitz - 22 Nov 2022 at 7:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cabra Hoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 7:53pm
Mick challenged Keane over not playing against Iran presumably because he felt Keane was needed to get us there. When we did qualify and McCarthy had achieved his place in history as only the second man to manage us at the WC after Jack did he feel he could push Keane into a corner. McCarthy needed Keane to achieve success a lot more than Keane needed McCarthy, and they both knew it.
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micks job is not to be a nice guy or a decent man. His job was to get the best football team on the pitch and prepare the team as well as possible.  He failed on both of these.  Keane was a prick. Many players are l. Mbappe is.  Mick is good working with average players who are nice guys.  But you don’t win things with a team of nice guys.  You need to be able to manage ****s who are world class too.  Mick couldn’t and he couldn’t manage up either.  He was a nice guy with the FAI also. You need to put pressure on your boss too and manage up effectively.  

Edited by Baldrick - 22 Nov 2022 at 7:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 7:57pm
Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

Mick challenged Keane over not playing against Iran presumably because he felt Keane was needed to get us there. When we did qualify and McCarthy had achieved his place in history as only the second man to manage us at the WC after Jack did he feel he could push Keane into a corner. McCarthy needed Keane to achieve success a lot more than Keane needed McCarthy, and they both knew it.


That still doesn’t justify Keane’s carry-on, high up or lie down. 

And Keane’s ego was, and still is, far far bigger - and more brittle - than Mick’s would ever be tbf. He’s a total narcissistic with very little self-awareness. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 7:58pm
Fitz you know it’s possible to say that Keane was at fault and that Mick failed also. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

micks job is not to be a nice guy or a decent man. His job was to get the football team on the pitch and prepare the team as well as possible.  He failed on both of these.  Keane was a prick. Many players are l. Mbappe is.  Mick is good working with average players who are nice guys.  But you don’t win things with a team of nice guys.  You need to be able to manage ****s who are world class too.  Mick couldn’t and he couldn’t manage up either.  He was a nice guy with the FAI also. You need to put pressure on your boss too and manage up effectively.  


And Keane’s behaviour was that of a world-class player, was it? A world-class player would’ve publicly slated his manager and team-mates on the eve of a World Cup, would they?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trap junior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

micks job is not to be a nice guy or a decent man. His job was to get the football team on the pitch and prepare the team as well as possible.  He failed on both of these.  Keane was a prick. Many players are l. Mbappe is.  Mick is good working with average players who are nice guys.  But you don’t win things with a team of nice guys.  You need to be able to manage ****s who are world class too.  Mick couldn’t and he couldn’t manage up either.  He was a nice guy with the FAI also. You need to put pressure on your boss too and manage up effectively.  


He let lots of bad behaviour and lack of respect from Keane slide.  Enough was enough.

Keane was confronted by Ferguson for sl*gging off his team mates and Keane was f**ked out of United.  Exactly the same as Ireland.

Ronaldo sl*gged off the manager and team mates in the interview last week and has also been f**ked out of United.

Once you go public disrespecting the manager you deserve and will be thrown out by any self respecting manager otherwise you lose all respect fromt he other players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Fitz you know it’s possible to say that Keane was at fault and that Mick failed also. 

It is. IMHO Mick made mistakes but Keane’s behaviour before the confrontation - and, indeed, often throughout Mick’s reign was completely out of order - and therefore most of the blame lies with Keane. 


You mentioned egos - nobody could, with any degree of fairness or rationality - realistically claim that Mick’s ego is bigger than Keane’s. That’s a ludicrous notion tbh and Keane’s behaviour at the end of his United career clearly demonstrates that. He was bigger than Mick; bigger than Ireland; bigger than United. Everyone’s fault but his own. 
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Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Fitz you know it’s possible to say that Keane was at fault and that Mick failed also. 


Eveyone says Mick should have taken him aside on the quiet.

How would that have solved anything?   Keane would have f**ked Mick out of it in person as is his way and Mick would still have sent him home.  Keane only wanted an excuse to unleash all his bitter hatred towards him.   Ok, say it worked and some sort of truce was agreed, Keane had still sl*gged off the team and the clubs they played for.  There would have been resentment from the other players towards Keane and Roy was never going to say ''Sorry  lads I was out of line there''.  So that resentment and ill feeling would have been let fester and it would have come out on the pitch and in fighting would have occurred in now time. It would have had a detrimental impact on team spirit and performance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 8:19pm
Originally posted by Fitz Fitz wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

micks job is not to be a nice guy or a decent man. His job was to get the football team on the pitch and prepare the team as well as possible.  He failed on both of these.  Keane was a prick. Many players are l. Mbappe is.  Mick is good working with average players who are nice guys.  But you don’t win things with a team of nice guys.  You need to be able to manage ****s who are world class too.  Mick couldn’t and he couldn’t manage up either.  He was a nice guy with the FAI also. You need to put pressure on your boss too and manage up effectively.  


And Keane’s behaviour was that of a world-class player, was it? A world-class player would’ve publicly slated his manager and team-mates on the eve of a World Cup, would they?

No Keane’s behaviour was shocking.  But that doesn’t mean Mick should get a free pass and not be called out for appalling management of a prized asset. You don’t poke the bear when the bear is key to your hopes of success.  Would deschamps be doing a good job if he had a run in with mbappe if he was acting the ****. 
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