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The 8th - Repealed!

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Poll Question: Will you vote to Repeal the 8th amendment?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
74 [64.35%]
41 [35.65%]
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Jack Charlton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Devrozex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2018 at 10:07am
Originally posted by ringerbell ringerbell wrote:

Interesting 1st post btw would be interested to know what way you think we should lineup in Paris on Monday Wink
 
LOL
 
 
Originally posted by Lenny82 Lenny82 wrote:

I haven't seen one NO campaigner answer that question on a woman who had been raped. They fluff about and talk about offering help etc. Witho ut giving a straight answer. The majority obviously believe that there should be zero grounds for a termination regardless of the circumstances and their suggestions to re-word or amend the 8th, is all a stall tactic as they had no interest in engaging or putting forward suggested wording or proposals prior to it being drafted.

If this is a NO I will be appalled and you won't hear a dickie Bird from any of the NO side on re-wording and going again with a 2nd referendum nor will you see any change to the care, or lack there of, offered to woman forced to have babies in terrible situations be it health or economic.
 
Big time. I've watched the last three televised debates and this has stuck out like a sore thumb. If you were in any way on the fence about the issue the constant, and blatant, dodging of this question must surely have an impact.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MC Hammered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2018 at 10:19am
Originally posted by Newryrep Newryrep wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

One of the lads I know is voting no and his highly opiniated girlfriend called him a prehistoric monster LOL



There’s your chance now muffSmile

Jaysis Muff, your pals are regarded as prehistoric monsters by the ladies and they are still getting better results than you. 
El Puto Amo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2018 at 10:48am
Originally posted by the_walls the_walls wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by OohAah... OohAah... wrote:

This is indepth analysis of the Referendum It is pure analysis of all arguments. The author is a No voter but the author is advocating ammending the current Article in the constitution as opposed to ridding of it. Its an informative piece regardless of which voting intention someone has.



Impossible to do that - three former attorney generals (I refuse to say attorneys general as it really irks me even though it may be technically correct) have said it's impossible and any basic reading of the wording by a lay person shows it's impossible to amend it.

It needs to be OBLITERATED. 

I don't particularly fancy to living in a theocracy where:
12 year old rape victims are forced to give birth against their will
or where pregnant women who have cancer have to leave the state to get treatment
or where women who have a pregnancy involving a fatal foetal abnormality are treated as a mere vessel, thanks very much. 

You can shove your 8th Amendment up your arse.



I can't understand how it would be impossible for the people to change the wording of the 8th via a referendum. Do you have a link to this? I'm not doubting you, I would just like to understand the reasoning behind their opinion. 

 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/amendment-limiting-abortion-to-rape-cases-unworkable-say-former-ags-1.3495785

The wording of Article 40.3.3 is:  

The state acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.’

It should be obvious that you cannot reword that to take account of "hard cases" such as rape, incest and fatal foetal abnormality - because there then would no longer be an equal right to life. Such a contitutional provision will always be blunt and create hard cases, because pregnancy is a unique circumstance where one life is entirely dependent on on the other. 

The whole point of the Eighth Amendment was that it was blunt and generalised across the board. It was specifically designed NOT to take account of hard cases and the obvious implication of it when it was introdued was that it would directly create hard cases. 

Even the Eighth Amendment itself has been picked apart around the edges by the Supreme Court over the years - it orgininally included a ban on travel - that was obliterated by the X Case and the subsequent referendum which specifically enshrined a right to an abortion - just not in this country. 

Roche v Roche (2009) established that frozen embryos had no right to life. 

Then the Ms. P case in 2014 established that a brain dead pregnant woman should be allowed to die rather than be used as a vessel. 

Any attempted "rewording" to deal with "hard cases" would quickly be picked apart in the Supreme Court.

Also, it would be highly undesirable to put a woman effectively on trial in order to obtain an abortion.

We have a chance to cut out the Brexit-style bullsh*t and get this right, now. 

The only way hard cases can be legislated for is by obliterating the Eighth Amendment and bringing in the proposed legislation. 

We need as a country to grow the fook up and vote Yes.







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irishmufc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2018 at 11:06am
Originally posted by the_walls the_walls wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

One of the lads I know is voting no and his highly opiniated girlfriend called him a prehistoric monster LOL



Why is she still with him in that case LOLLOL

Cos he's sound and great in the sack LOL. We both know this lad and you'd probably be surprised he's a no voter Wink
Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob Hoskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2018 at 11:06am
Originally posted by the_walls the_walls wrote:

Originally posted by Bob Hoskins Bob Hoskins wrote:

Originally posted by Croftman Croftman wrote:

Originally posted by Bob Hoskins Bob Hoskins wrote:

It'll all be over soon Smile . The sooner all those posters are gone the better 
Agreed. Wasn't there talk before of banning election posters? Be a great idea

There was but then they checked the statute book and realised it would take a referendum to ban them, not joking btw 

Really? They're banned in Westport but perhaps that is just the local organisations of each party agreeing not to putting up their posters. 

Or agreeing to stay out of Westport for fear of picking up some of the local weirdness. One of which is been a rampant Dub masquerading as a Mayo fan  
Romario 2016: And the ticket mafia gets caught! Well, four years ago I had already told the government.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horsebox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2018 at 11:11am
Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by the_walls the_walls wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

One of the lads I know is voting no and his highly opiniated girlfriend called him a prehistoric monster LOL




Why is she still with him in that case LOLLOL


Cos he's sound and great in the sack LOL. We both know this lad and you'd probably be surprised he's a no voter Wink


How do you know he's great in the sack?
It was far across the sea,
When the devil got a hold of me,
He wouldn't set me free,
So he kept me soul for ransom.
na na na na na na na na na
na na na na na na na na.
I'm a sailor man from Glasgow to
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2018 at 11:12am
Originally posted by GB 1HughJarse GB 1HughJarse wrote:

 
You don’t by any chance work in the Iona Institute, do you Fly?
Do you have a picture of John Charles McQuaid above your mantelpiece?

Nope, I'm not religious.
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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2018 at 11:40am
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:




The wording of Article 40.3.3 is:  

The state acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.’

It should be obvious that you cannot reword that to take account of "hard cases" such as rape, incest and fatal foetal abnormality - because there then would no longer be an equal right to life. Such a contitutional provision will always be blunt and create hard cases, because pregnancy is a unique circumstance where one life is entirely dependent on on the other. 

The whole point of the Eighth Amendment was that it was blunt and generalised across the board. It was specifically designed NOT to take account of hard cases and the obvious implication of it when it was introdued was that it would directly create hard cases. 

Even the Eighth Amendment itself has been picked apart around the edges by the Supreme Court over the years - it orgininally included a ban on travel - that was obliterated by the X Case and the subsequent referendum which specifically enshrined a right to an abortion - just not in this country. 

Roche v Roche (2009) established that frozen embryos had no right to life. 

Then the Ms. P case in 2014 established that a brain dead pregnant woman should be allowed to die rather than be used as a vessel. 

Any attempted "rewording" to deal with "hard cases" would quickly be picked apart in the Supreme Court.

Also, it would be highly undesirable to put a woman effectively on trial in order to obtain an abortion.

We have a chance to cut out the Brexit-style bullsh*t and get this right, now. 

The only way hard cases can be legislated for is by obliterating the Eighth Amendment and bringing in the proposed legislation. 

We need as a country to grow the fook up and vote Yes.








The thing is, you don't really need to legislate to manage the "hard cases". By removing the 8th you open up the system to permit termination in the event of the "hard cases" as the life of the mother is clearly at risk. 

An interesting fact I learned is that abortion is actually not decriminalised in the UK (in open to correction) But the extent to which it is treated as a private medical issue is so wide that in practice it is not illegal nor would anybody be prosecuted for it. In fact, all you would need is to repeal the disparate laws which relate to abortion, along with the repeal of the 8th Amendment and it's solved as far as the hard cases go.

The fact that this referendum has come with proposals for legislation has made it a more difficult referendum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lassassinblanc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2018 at 11:53am
Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by the_walls the_walls wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

One of the lads I know is voting no and his highly opiniated girlfriend called him a prehistoric monster LOL




Why is she still with him in that case LOLLOL


Cos he's sound and great in the sack LOL. We both know this lad and you'd probably be surprised he's a no voter Wink


How do you know he's great in the sack?


I think that answers the question
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OohAah... Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2018 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by OohAah... OohAah... wrote:

This is indepth analysis of the Referendum It is pure analysis of all arguments. The author is a No voter but the author is advocating ammending the current Article in the constitution as opposed to ridding of it. Its an informative piece regardless of which voting intention someone has.



Impossible to do that - three former attorney generals (I refuse to say attorneys general as it really irks me even though it may be technically correct) have said it's impossible and any basic reading of the wording by a lay person shows it's impossible to amend it.

It needs to be OBLITERATED. 

I don't particularly fancy to living in a theocracy where:
12 year old rape victims are forced to give birth against their will
or where pregnant women who have cancer have to leave the state to get treatment
or where women who have a pregnancy involving a fatal foetal abnormality are treated as a mere vessel, thanks very much. 

You can shove your 8th Amendment up your arse.



Don't let my introduction detract from the contents of the article I shared.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shedite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2018 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by OohAah... OohAah... wrote:

This is indepth analysis of the Referendum It is pure analysis of all arguments. The author is a No voter but the author is advocating ammending the current Article in the constitution as opposed to ridding of it. Its an informative piece regardless of which voting intention someone has.
Impossible to do that - three former attorney generals (I refuse to say attorneys general as it really irks me even though it may be technically correct) have said it's impossible and any basic reading of the wording by a lay person shows it's impossible to amend it.
Sid, you're in for a shock when you see the polling card tomorrow. You're being asked one question, "whether or not to delete the present Article 40.3.3 of the Constitution and replace it with a new Article."

So yes, it is definitely possible to amend the constitution. A Yes vote will do that
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shedite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2018 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:




The wording of Article 40.3.3 is:  

The state acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.’

It should be obvious that you cannot reword that to take account of "hard cases" such as rape, incest and fatal foetal abnormality - because there then would no longer be an equal right to life. Such a contitutional provision will always be blunt and create hard cases, because pregnancy is a unique circumstance where one life is entirely dependent on on the other. 

The whole point of the Eighth Amendment was that it was blunt and generalised across the board. It was specifically designed NOT to take account of hard cases and the obvious implication of it when it was introdued was that it would directly create hard cases. 

Even the Eighth Amendment itself has been picked apart around the edges by the Supreme Court over the years - it orgininally included a ban on travel - that was obliterated by the X Case and the subsequent referendum which specifically enshrined a right to an abortion - just not in this country. 

Roche v Roche (2009) established that frozen embryos had no right to life. 

Then the Ms. P case in 2014 established that a brain dead pregnant woman should be allowed to die rather than be used as a vessel. 

Any attempted "rewording" to deal with "hard cases" would quickly be picked apart in the Supreme Court.

Also, it would be highly undesirable to put a woman effectively on trial in order to obtain an abortion.

We have a chance to cut out the Brexit-style bullsh*t and get this right, now. 

The only way hard cases can be legislated for is by obliterating the Eighth Amendment and bringing in the proposed legislation. 

We need as a country to grow the fook up and vote Yes.


The thing is, you don't really need to legislate to manage the "hard cases". By removing the 8th you open up the system to permit termination in the event of the "hard cases" as the life of the mother is clearly at risk. 
+1

All the Yes campaign arguments are around the 1%
The no campaign arguments are around the 99%

On one hand, sense says you legislate around the majority of cases, not to make rules for the 1%, but on the other hand, most laws in the constitution protect the 1% (murder, divorce etc). It's a tricky one


Edited by Shedite - 24 May 2018 at 12:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cm79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2018 at 1:30pm
I'm just after seeing the clip with Ronan Mullen, what a vile scumbag he is.
 
He has probably turned people who were undecided about how they would vote to Yes voters.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benboview Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2018 at 1:34pm
Originally posted by bhob bhob wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Just read the comments made by that vile Ronan Mullen. He is one depraved individual.
 
"you deserve love and respect despite what you have done" to the woman who had an abortion in the UK
 
What an utter ****bag he really is.

I don't get what the problem is?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cm79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2018 at 1:37pm
Have you watched the clip?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benboview Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2018 at 1:57pm
Yes I was watching it last night.

It was more awkward than anything. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bhob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2018 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by benboview benboview wrote:

Originally posted by bhob bhob wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Just read the comments made by that vile Ronan Mullen. He is one depraved individual.
 
"you deserve love and respect despite what you have done" to the woman who had an abortion in the UK
 
What an utter ****bag he really is.

I don't get what the problem is?


 
Condemning a woman who'd had an abortion. You don't see what's wrong with that? A woman who talks about the heartache, pain and suffering she went through because of the process. You don't see how his comment was bang out of order?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEWHEELER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2018 at 2:05pm
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