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The 8th - Repealed!

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Poll Question: Will you vote to Repeal the 8th amendment?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
74 [64.35%]
41 [35.65%]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borussia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 11:47am
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Borussia Borussia wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

But there were many reasons to vote leave, rightly or wrongly. The problem with that campaign, on both sides, was that it became about immigration.
I still haven't heard a genuine reason for voting no and people who may be leaning towards voting no are refusing to give a reason because they are afraid, before expressing them, that their views will be sneered at, which suggests that those views are irrational.

They might be afraid of giving a reason because before they have had a chance to do so, they are already being labelled as wackos - That's the point !
It is catch 22 then! The reason they are being so labelled is for not giving a reason! They are essentially labelling themselves.

Not the case here - You labelled them as wackos and then asked for the reason. Not the other way around.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberto Baggio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 11:49am
Mickey Harte's reasoning:
 
He said: “I’ve always felt people in Ireland are very good at supporting each other, looking out for the most vulnerable in society and nobody’s more vulnerable than the unborn. So I’m encouraging you to vote no to save the 8th amendment. The alternative kills babies and wounds the mother. You know what the right choice is.”
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 11:50am
All I have asked for is a genuine reason and what I have got is a cop out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 11:50am
This is a more nuanced situation, as it ultimately relates to the very emotive issue of abortion. As such, the battle lines should be drawn away from that, and actually focussed on what it is, a constitutional amendment to repeal a previous amendment which has given rise to confusion, uncertainty, and personal damage. This is why I would love the debate to be had between lawyers, doctors, pervious services users, international experts, and human rights personnel. Those with no expertise, but emotional and political skin in the game are what makes this a very difficult situation, which is going to result in serious bad faith between both sides, huge amounts of mud slinging, and very emotive arguments, which will tug at the public hearts, but not actually progress the debate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MC Hammered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 11:52am
Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:


Mickey Harte's reasoning:
 
He said: “I’ve always felt people in Ireland are very good at supporting each other, looking out for the most vulnerable in society and nobody’s more vulnerable than the unborn. So I’m encouraging you to vote no to save the 8th amendment. The alternative kills babies and wounds the mother. You know what the right choice is.”
 


We have always had a great support system here alright. Those Magdalene laundries were super. Good shout Mickey
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote randyrandolph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 11:52am
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

But there were many reasons to vote leave, rightly or wrongly. The problem with that campaign, on both sides, was that it became about immigration.
I still haven't heard a genuine reason for voting no and people who may be leaning towards voting no are refusing to give a reason because they are afraid, before expressing them, that their views will be sneered at, which suggests that those views are irrational.

it's a highly emotive subject PM. people will quote no for reasons that is not just church led moral doctrine. 

for the record i cant vote as i have lived in the uk for most of my life. if i could vote i would find it hard to vote yes. incidentally i would have voted yes for introducing same sex marriage.

my "difficultly" in voting yes in the abortion question - if i could vote - is down to personal experience. having tried for years to have a baby and experiencing utter heartbreak of a m/c i find terminating a life difficult to stomach - to even think about. for me it's not about what the pope says. that's not to say i would 100% vote "no" - but it means that i find the debate difficult for different reasons. 

it's not a black and white question. 

i would argue welcoming debate is better than attacking people. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bhob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by randyrandolph randyrandolph wrote:

Originally posted by bhob bhob wrote:

Originally posted by randyrandolph randyrandolph wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by randyrandolph randyrandolph wrote:

Originally posted by bhob bhob wrote:

I see the people who voted no above haven't been brave enough to post as to their reasoning why, pity really.
 
I can't vote on this but am 100% voting repeal the 8th.

i think silly comments like this is why many silent "no" voters wont engage in a debate...

 
I honestly cannot see how you could vote no and not be a 'wacko' of some sort. Can anybody explain to me how they could rationalise voting no?

do you really not understand why someone would choose not engage with this??? 

additionally, how could you debate this issue with someone who has f*** the pope in their signature.

 
Can you explain why you think my comment is silly?
 
 

because your targeting people who have voted no by immediately questioning their "bravery" - ffs  are you unable to see how can could be taken as antagonistic. 

People might vote in a way you don't like for a number of reasons.  Healthy debate is good. in fact it should be your ultimate aim if you want to change their opinion on the question. calling them wacko's doesn't encourage debate. this comment is not just about the abortion question. it's about all debate. I've probably been guilty of this myself. the brexit referendum was a classic example of this. If you voted leave you were a racist so many leave voters kept quiet, and still voted leave...
 
I didn't call them wackos, I simply stated that people who are voting no aren't brave enough to validate their reasons as to why on here and it's pretty apparent why they won't because the no campaign is just full of untruths and shock, mostly fake, imagery, that's pretty much all they have, so they won't post on here why they're voting no.
 
I don't see how I'm antagonising anyone. If I was voting no I'd have the balls to be able to post up why I'm voting no at least.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote armahibee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 12:03pm
First of all I'm a nordy so my opinion doesn't count, I'm also a committed secularist and atheist I'm no Catholic wacko..but the whole abolition thing sits uneasy with me. Looking at the termination figures from the scandavian countries for fetuses with downs syndrome it reeks of eugenics.
There's A lot to be said for taking responsibility for your behaviour the elephant in the room being
all abortions from my peer group where due to one night stands etc. I believe it will pass because it facilitates the lads getting a no consequences ride and woman more control over there bodies. Kind of win-win. Now I'm pro choice but not for terminations on demand. Which is where we will be at in 15 years

Edited by armahibee - 28 Mar 2018 at 12:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bhob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 12:06pm
Why do people think repealing the 8th will be used as some sort of contraceptive?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stickittotheman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 12:10pm
Can't vote in this, but if I lived in the south I would vote repeal.
Walters coming back from an offside position but Shane Long was definitely onside- Shane Lonnggggggg.... has done it!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by bhob bhob wrote:

Why do people think repealing the 8th will be used as some sort of contraceptive?

Its the fact that both sides of the debate, out of the traps have made this about abortion, as opposed to what it should be debated as.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greenforever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by MC Hammered MC Hammered wrote:

Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:


Mickey Harte's reasoning:
 
He said: “I’ve always felt people in Ireland are very good at supporting each other, looking out for the most vulnerable in society and nobody’s more vulnerable than the unborn. So I’m encouraging you to vote no to save the 8th amendment. The alternative kills babies and wounds the mother. You know what the right choice is.”
 


We have always had a great support system here alright. Those Magdalene laundries were super. Good shout Mickey



Your comment just proves the point why people looking at voting no won't or are unlikely to engage in debate.

Repealing the 8th will bring in unrestricted abortion starting off with the proposed 12 weeks and then no doubt becoming more liberal.

Am I religious No

Do I believe in Abortion - no I am strongly anti

Have I a right to tell others how to live - No

Will I vote yes - probably will be out of the country but I voted in favour of the 8th at the time as I believed it was right, now I would vote to repeal, but would respect other peoples views that are different to mine.
I know nothing :-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MC Hammered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by greenforever greenforever wrote:

Originally posted by MC Hammered MC Hammered wrote:

Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:


Mickey Harte's reasoning:
 
He said: “I’ve always felt people in Ireland are very good at supporting each other, looking out for the most vulnerable in society and nobody’s more vulnerable than the unborn. So I’m encouraging you to vote no to save the 8th amendment. The alternative kills babies and wounds the mother. You know what the right choice is.”
 


We have always had a great support system here alright. Those Magdalene laundries were super. Good shout Mickey



Your comment just proves the point why people looking at voting no won't or are unlikely to engage in debate.

Repealing the 8th will bring in unrestricted abortion starting off with the proposed 12 weeks and then no doubt becoming more liberal.

Am I religious No

Do I believe in Abortion - no I am strongly anti

Have I a right to tell others how to live - No

Will I vote yes - probably will be out of the country but I voted in favour of the 8th at the time as I believed it was right, now I would vote to repeal, but would respect other peoples views that are different to mine.


Hang on a second, what support was Mickey referring to?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by randyrandolph randyrandolph wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

But there were many reasons to vote leave, rightly or wrongly. The problem with that campaign, on both sides, was that it became about immigration.
I still haven't heard a genuine reason for voting no and people who may be leaning towards voting no are refusing to give a reason because they are afraid, before expressing them, that their views will be sneered at, which suggests that those views are irrational.

it's a highly emotive subject PM. people will quote no for reasons that is not just church led moral doctrine. 

for the record i cant vote as i have lived in the uk for most of my life. if i could vote i would find it hard to vote yes. incidentally i would have voted yes for introducing same sex marriage.

my "difficultly" in voting yes in the abortion question - if i could vote - is down to personal experience. having tried for years to have a baby and experiencing utter heartbreak of a m/c i find terminating a life difficult to stomach - to even think about. for me it's not about what the pope says. that's not to say i would 100% vote "no" - but it means that i find the debate difficult for different reasons. 

it's not a black and white question. 

i would argue welcoming debate is better than attacking people. 
Fair play for giving your reasons but I believe personal choice should be kept out of it. I have no idea how I would feel if my partner was pregnant and didn't want to keep it, ideologically I feel it would be her decision more than mine, but that is irrelevant to this vote, which, as HF rightly said, is about amending the constitution correctly and hopefully, in my opinion, bringing it in line with international human rights recommendations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bhob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by greenforever greenforever wrote:

Originally posted by MC Hammered MC Hammered wrote:

Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:


Mickey Harte's reasoning:
 
He said: “I’ve always felt people in Ireland are very good at supporting each other, looking out for the most vulnerable in society and nobody’s more vulnerable than the unborn. So I’m encouraging you to vote no to save the 8th amendment. The alternative kills babies and wounds the mother. You know what the right choice is.”
 


We have always had a great support system here alright. Those Magdalene laundries were super. Good shout Mickey



Your comment just proves the point why people looking at voting no won't or are unlikely to engage in debate.

Repealing the 8th will bring in unrestricted abortion starting off with the proposed 12 weeks and then no doubt becoming more liberal.

Am I religious No

Do I believe in Abortion - no I am strongly anti

Have I a right to tell others how to live - No

Will I vote yes - probably will be out of the country but I voted in favour of the 8th at the time as I believed it was right, now I would vote to repeal, but would respect other peoples views that are different to mine.
 
This is just utter nonsense being peddled by the NO side. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 12:27pm
These is absolutely no suggestion that any legislation for abortion would go beyond 12 weeks, which is in line with the vast majority of Europe. Anybody who knows a thing or two about pregnancy will know that 12 weeks is actually a very small window, as pregnancy actually is counted almost 4 weeks before conception/implantation etc occurs, which limits the window to make any decision to 6-8 weeks. Beyond that, it will be for the physician to make a call based on the mother's individual medical condition. There is no reason to believe that any post referendum legislation would go beyond the European norm, or reflect the UK.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob Hoskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by BigPodge BigPodge wrote:

But I don't agree in abortions in cases where a woman / couple feel they just don't want to have a baby and have it aborted, if people are stupid enough to not practice safe sex then they shouldn't be allowed have an abortion in my opinion, I know a few people that have done this and think it's a disgrace.
Yeah that's the only thing that's making me question it really.

I suppose the counter is that:
1. Those people travel to England anyway so you're just removing a journey
2. I imagine the abortion procedure is fairly nasty so it's not like people are going to use this as a contraceptive
3. Major generalization here, but I'd imagine some of the people who get pregnant young by accident and would now avail of abortion are probably from disadvantaged backgrounds, the types whose kids will end up "having a tough upbringing" and ending up in front of a judge at some point with 300+ convictions on their record. It might help with a bit of natural selection.

I'm sure there's a nicer way of saying that last point.
Confused I know a few who don't fit that narrative and had an abortion in England 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 12:58pm
Yeah I think the "start" date for the twelve weeks is usually the start of the previous cycle. Conception tends to be about two weeks after that and implantation a few days again after that. The first visible indication is about four weeks after the start of the previous cycle (i.e. the missed period) so it's eight weeks from then. That's my understanding on it.

However, and this does need to be clear, the constitutional amendment will not contain the twelve week limit. The amendment will simply say that the Oireachtas may legislate for termination of pregnancy.

The current wording is as follows:

 "The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.
This subsection shall not limit freedom to travel between the State and another state.
This subsection shall not limit freedom to obtain or make available, in the State, subject to such conditions as may be laid down by law, information relating to services lawfully available in another state."

The proposed new wording is simply:

"Provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancy."

That is to replace all of the above.

The Oireachtas will have the power and ability to legislate on the issue of termination. The recent Supreme Court decision is that the only rights "the unborn" (using the wording of the constitution) has are those specified above: if that is repealed, effectively the unborn will lose any rights they had under the Constitution.

Now, all of that being the case, the Government have decided that they are going to pass a bill which allows for termination without reason in the first twelve weeks. However, that limit will be a legal limit only, not a constitutional limit. It would, conceivably, be open to the Oireachtas to legislate for the termination of pregnancy right up until the end of pregnancy, or possibly arguably until the threshold of viability. It is not clear what rights a viable child in the womb would have - that may require addressing in future. I am not sure if the recent decision addressed that. Plus, Supreme Court decisions can be revisited in future cases, in certain circumstances, particularly where there are constitutional issues.

Like any referendum on this issue, there is no perfect legal answer and sometimes it is better to leave things to the Oireachtas and the courts rather than trying to be prescriptive in the Constitution. This is clearly an issue where opinions change from generation to generation and the Constitution should not be a periodical, so it is likely best left out of the Constitution. I'll be voting repeal but it needs to be clear what the outcome is - that the Oireachtas are the ones with the power to legislate for termination of pregnancy, not that the Constitution will stipulate that it's grand for the first twelve weeks or in other specified circumstances.


Edited by SuperDave84 - 28 Mar 2018 at 1:05pm
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