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Ray Houghton
Ray Houghton

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Points: 3836 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote planning Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2019 at 8:21pm
VAR is the best thing about the tournament imo. Apart from the use of VAR, my main interest is when do England go OUT of the World Cup. Then BBC and Sky will rapidly lose interest, and start showing something more important to most viewers.

Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Nobody is complaining about officials implementing the actual rules. You seem to believe they are. One of the biggest issues is that it takes a massive amount off time to get the easiest and clearest of decisions right. How is this the case? You mention the Henry incident, I've no doubt it would take 6 minutes in the current setup. It should take 15-30 seconds maximum though as it's so blatantly clear. It's an easy decision.

You have now moved onto keepers moving off the line. First of all , you
do realise this rule has been tweaked again? You seem to have a serious issue with the grasp of the rules in football. 

So let's deal with a couple of things you seem to refuse to respond to. First , in the women's world cup VAR was being used to penalise keepers in penalty situations who are encroaching illegally. For penalty shootouts though, FIFA have said that VAR will not be used in those situations. So it's more likely keepers will get away with it in shootouts than in normal time.

That was always the case, even before VAR. I don't recall seeing any penalty in a shootout retaken for encroachment. I know there have been a handful down the years, just I haven't seen them. I have seen many retaken in normal time. Move along, nothing to see here. 

The rule though at the tournament has not been tweaked. In normal playing time, VAR will still be used to detect if keepers have saved a spot kick, by moving off their line and gaining an advantage, as it has been. The yellow card will be dropped, but the rule still stands.

I don't care how long it takes to make decisions. All I want is the correct decision. If it takes 5 minutes, it takes 5 minutes, so what. There's no time limit. I don't want anyone again to walk off a pitch or out of stand, thinking they were robbed. Cameroon had a go at it. When that didn't work, they threw a hissy fit. When that didn't work, they played the old reliable, the race card. That didn't cut any mustard either. They had no case whatsoever. 

To me, arguing against the use of VAR is akin to arguing against the use of ATC, it's pointless. We need VAR. We needed it decades ago, and it's a disgrace it's taken as long as it has, for our sport to be able to use it. At the highest levels of this sport, there is way too much at stake, for us not to embrace every available resource to get the correct outcome. I have waited 30 years for video reviews of decisions. Some players have waited 4 years to play in this tournament. So having to wait a few minutes to get the right decision that decides whether you get to the next round or your flight home, is no time.


Edited by planning - 24 Jun 2019 at 8:29pm
VAR: Cutting the crap out of football.
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Roy Keane
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Who is arguing against the use of VAR? Myself is it?

It's like talking to a wall tbh. I am in favour of VAR, once it's a competent system. This clearly is not the case. Decisions that should be taking 30 seconds or a minute maximum to come to a conclusion are taking 4,5,6 minutes at times. It's a complete farce. If you don't recognise that, and you're happy with Nigel Owens being the star of the show, best of luck to you.

There's a massive amount of whataboutery in your last post. Was anyone saying that lots of decisions went against Cameroon yesterday? I know I certainly never said that (although I do believe they were shafted on the first goal, really poor touch by the defender being construed as a backpass). 

Then you go on about the VAR situation around penalties with keepers encroaching. So VAR will rule on them during normal and extra time, but not during the penalty shootouts. So the rules are far easier to bend in a penalty shootout and keepers will have a far better chance of getting away with illegal encroachments. Strange that you are in favour of that considering your staunch stance on all cheaters bring found out by VAR. It's almost like you just refuse to say anything negative against the way VAR is being implemented.

Amazing that in so much nonsense and whataboutery, you haven't once discussed your recent comments where you said that every single handball by a defensive player in his box will result in a penalty. Why is that? Very strange, it's almost like you realise VAR has got plenty of decisions wrong lately and you have realised the rules you thought exist, well they never actually existed LOL
"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Jesus Christ lads give the f**k over.
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Two combs fighting over a bald man.
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Originally posted by BrendanD88 BrendanD88 wrote:

Jesus Christ lads give the f**k over.
 
+1, take the summer off lads.
 
You're taking this var too seriously Hans
 
 
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If i didn't watch any football VAR wouldn't bother me. Unfortunately for me I'm in the midst of watching the Copa, Cup of Nation's, Women's World Cup, U21s and the Concacaf tournaments. VAR is doing it's very best to ruin most of the tournaments it's being used in (while also still getting plenty of decisions wrong).

Watched Haiti against Costa Rica late last night. No VAR in the Concacaf Gold Cup. This was one of the best games I've watched in the last few years. Serious pace about the game, great flow to it. I've no doubt if VAR was used in that game players would we screaming and waving about fake tv screens to the ref every 5 minutes over each decision (another massive flaw is referees seem to be making this the norm and not booking for dissent each and every time). 

We all want to see the fairest results in games. It shouldn't have to be to the total detriment of the sport though. It really shouldn't be that hard to have a system that is in the background only.

As for planning, I'll keep banging the handball drum for asking as he posts here. He make embarrassing comments about the laws of the game. As Dr Phil would say, he should own that problem. 
"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Two combs fighting over a bald man.

LOL

I can't believe this debate has been going on for nearly a week.
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Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Two combs fighting over a bald man.

LOL

I can't believe this debate has been going on for nearly a week.

4 weeks I believe LOL

I also believe that this debate will go on for years. It's silly to underplay the role of VAR. It's a monumental shift in top level football. Has been in use in plenty of competitions for 2 years plus now and yet the inconsistencies and flaws in it are changing the face of top level football. Not for the better either.
"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Two combs fighting over a bald man.

LOL

I can't believe this debate has been going on for nearly a week.
I’d be 99.3% sure it’s more 
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Roy Keane
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Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Unfortunately for me I'm in the midst of watching the Copa, Cup of Nation's, Women's World Cup, U21s and the Concacaf tournaments. 

So you like football a bit?
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Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Unfortunately for me I'm in the midst of watching the Copa, Cup of Nation's, Women's World Cup, U21s and the Concacaf tournaments. 

So you like football a bit?

I hate football, what would you give you any other impression LOL
"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Originally posted by 9fingers 9fingers wrote:

Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Two combs fighting over a bald man.

LOL

I can't believe this debate has been going on for nearly a week.
I’d be 99.3% sure it’s more 

Not sure? We all know what to do

Image result for var referee gif
"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Ray Houghton
Ray Houghton

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Originally posted by Stoked Up Stoked Up wrote:

As far as I can see the issue is not the VAR, but the standard of ref's officiating. Many of the ref's have never had to officiate on such a global stage and with TV audiences higher than usual in Europe at least.

By the time most male ref's aspire to major championships they've served their time in domestic and international club competitions.

-

Most of the refs have officiated at previous tournaments, but I believe this is the first women's tournament with VAR. So it's the first time they have to use it, outside of training scenarios. To be fair to them, most do just as good a job as the men, but unfortunately have to deal with the same issues the men have, poor levels of communication. 

The average VAR incident goes something like this. 

Incident.
Play on
Play stops, Provisional decision made.
Director shows players/coaches/fans reaction
Replay
More replays
VAR notification
Ref on screen
More replays 
Ref on screen
Review signalled
Ref goes to monitor
More replays
Ref leaves monitor
Final Decision
More replays
Play resumes.

This can happen multiple times per game. It can even happen after the half/final whistle is blown, if required. It's not the girl's fault. They're only doing the job they're supposed to do, i.e. apply the laws of the game as they stand, not as people want them to be. 

Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Who is arguing against the use of VAR? Myself is it?

It's like talking to a wall tbh. I am in favour of VAR, once it's a competent system. This clearly is not the case. Decisions that should be taking 30 seconds or a minute maximum to come to a conclusion are taking 4,5,6 minutes at times. It's a complete farce.

 Was anyone saying that lots of decisions went against Cameroon yesterday? I know I certainly never said that (although I do believe they were shafted on the first goal, really poor touch by the defender being construed as a backpass). 

Then you go on about the VAR situation around penalties with keepers encroaching. So VAR will rule on them during normal and extra time, but not during the penalty shootouts. 

Amazing that you haven't once discussed your recent comments where you said that every single handball by a defensive player in his box will result in a penalty.

Look who wrote this

Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

it simply should be binned

-

This is what I'm arguing against. People who want the end of VAR until it meets their standards. And if it means going back to wrong refereeing decisions, cheating players, angry fans, unjust results, jobs lost, well that's just the price that we have to live with. Rugby doesn't have to tolerate it, cricket, tennis, hockey,  motorsport, American/Australian football and numerous other minority sports don't have to, but the biggest sport in the world should? No, not imo.

The handball rulebook has now removed the word deliberate. So if a ref now spots the use of a hand, they can just point to the spot and say, there was a handball and that justifies their decision. And most refs will. 

I have seen people say Cameroon were robbed by VAR against England, and not just the Cameroon bench. In all cases, the decisions are clear and obvious. 

I didn't say I was in favour of gk encroachments. All I said was that (yellow card apart) nothing has changed. Last night, the Sweden goalkeeper showed how to save a penalty without breaking any rules. They know they can't move off their line beforehand, but they can still save penalties. 

I didn't say VAR was perfect, I did say VAR was as good as it gets. Communication levels between referees on the field and off it, are still very poor. Also, most broadcasters are still generally very slow to provide replays.  Sometimes they don't show any at all, until after the decision is made. It may be an order from UEFA/FIFA, or the host broadcaster doesn't want to show it if it's in favour of the away side, or the director hates VAR and also wants it binned. Whatever the real reason, it's unacceptable, and even though it ultimately doesn't matter, it explains a lot of why the "simple" decisions take as long as they do to resolve. 

In the Brazil-Bolivia CA game, it was possible for us to hear the referee talking with his VAR team, and explaining why Brazil should get a penalty for a handball in the box. That's what I want more of. It doesn't matter that he wasn't speaking English, it can be translated in seconds. There should also be numerous screens around the pitch, for referees to go to the nearest one and use, not restricted to one screen only. However, referees don't need  pitchside monitors to judge offsides. The VAR team have more than enough tools at their disposal to do it themselves. There are two VAR's per game whose only jobs are to check offsides. All these issues are easily fixed, and I am sure they will be when someone has the will to go and do it. None of this means I want VAR binned until it's all done. It's not perfect, but it's the best we have, and I can live with all of the above, if it means we have the correct decision on the day, which is the only thing that matters. When I see/hear pundits, managers, fans, admit "the correct decision was made", is proof that this system works, and we need to get it into as many leagues and cups as possible asap.



Edited by planning - 25 Jun 2019 at 3:41pm
VAR: Cutting the crap out of football.
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Jack Charlton
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Originally posted by 9fingers 9fingers wrote:

Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Two combs fighting over a bald man.

LOL

I can't believe this debate has been going on for nearly a week.
I’d be 99.3% sure it’s more 

LOL
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first time I have come into this thread I think.. 
Most rational people would be of the opinion it's a flawed but ultimately good system that has some issues to iron out. 

I don't need to read through the previous 16 pages to know there is an argument over the length of a piece of string.
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The average VAR incident goes something like this. 

Incident.
Play on
Play stops, Provisional decision made.
Director shows players/coaches/fans reaction
Replay
More replays
VAR notification
Ref on screen
More replays 
Ref on screen
Review signalled
Ref goes to monitor
More replays
Ref leaves monitor
Final Decision
More replays
Play resumes.

This can happen multiple times per game 

Sweet suffering jaysus. It won't be long until we have the NFL styled TV timeouts in the middle of the game. It's hilarious that you don't see the obvious issue here. Everybody can.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

it simply should be binned
LOL LOL LOL
I love how you took a quote of mine, edited it and took it totally out of context to suit what you are saying. I have consistently been in favour of VAR. It is clear that the system is nowhere near aligned enough or up to speed currently though. It is basically a complete farce and not fit for purpose (VAR is not being helped by the amount of law changes and referees and VAR officials simply not being up top standard either - it's a perfect farcical storm).
-------------------------------------------

The handball rulebook has now removed the word deliberate. So if a ref now spots the use of a hand, they can just point to the spot and say, there was a handball and that justifies their decision. And most refs will.

This is probably the best thing I've ever read on the internet LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL So what you are saying is that referees can now basically make up any rule they want on a pitch. Will they be awarding 2 goals to teams for goals scored outside the box next? LOL LOL LOL

Please read up on the laws of the game around handball. They really aren't that difficult. The main thing you need to realise is that there are lots of situations where a defensive player handles the ball in the box and a penalty cannot be awarded (player deflecting the ball onto himself like Sissoko, a player blocking the ball with their arm right by their side, a player sliding and the ball hits their balancing arm,etc.). In essence the directives are very similar to what went before, except the scenarios given to referees are more exact. 

It is embarrassing that you still won't recognise that everything you said about handball scenarios has been wrong. I wonder will you be keeping a file next season in the PL on how many defenders handle the ball in their own box and a penalty isn't awarded against them. It will be a long file LOL
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Ray Houghton
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Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

I love how you took a quote of mine, edited it and took it totally out of context to suit what you are saying. I have consistently been in favour of VAR... 

Please read up on the laws of the game around handball. They really aren't that difficult. The main thing you need to realise is that there are lots of situations where a defensive player handles the ball in the box and a penalty cannot be awarded (player deflecting the ball onto himself like Sissoko, a player blocking the ball with their arm right by their side, a player sliding and the ball hits their balancing arm,etc.). In essence the directives are very similar to what went before, except the scenarios given to referees are more exact. 

It is embarrassing that you still won't recognise that everything you said about handball scenarios has been wrong. I wonder will you be keeping a file next season in the PL on how many defenders handle the ball in their own box and a penalty isn't awarded against them. It will be a long file.

No I won't. On the contrary, the file won't be long enough.

Since the above was posted, Holland have reached the WWC quarter finals by scoring the winning goal in injury time. How did they get there? Take a wild guess. LOL it's at least 1 a day at this stage. Wait until the EPL starts...

The huge amount of penalties awarded at the WWC is not an accident. The  huge amount of penalties awarded at the WC last year was not an accident. The huge amount of penalties awarded in the European Cup knockout rounds was not an accident. The penalty awarded in the first 25 seconds of the European Cup Final was not an accident. To you, it's all down to crap referees who don't understand the rules properly. To me, it's down to one common denominator, VAR. The stuff you used to get away with before, you get punished for now. 

You were not quoted out of context. The quote was under your name. You wrote it. I just quoted what you said, and responded to it. 

I forever thank the gods or whoever it was, that dragged Platini out of UEFA and FIFA. If he wasn't, he would now be FIFA President and under his corrupt regime, there would have been no VAR, nor even goalline technology. He was resolutely opposed to both. The result on the ground would be more Henrys, allowed to cheat and con all and sundry, more questionable venues awarded European showpieces, and more oil soaked regimes awarded the right to host World Cup tournaments, with nobody there to check if it was the correct thing to do.

When he was kicked out, a new President/regime swept in that instantly embraced and promoted the use of technology in this sport asap. Nowadays, anyone who tries to cheat on the pitch is punished on the spot. If they're not spotted on the pitch, they will be caught by big brother in the VAR room. It takes a bit of time to catch what they've done sometimes, but they get caught red handed sooner or later. You can con a ref, but you cannot con a camera. The VAR system doesn't do bias, it doesn't recognise big teams or small teams, or rankings or seedings. It doesn't care whether it's a full house watching or there is more seats than spectators. It simply says "this is what happened, this is what should be done about it, so go ahead and do it". And sure enough, it's done. 

This is the future of refereeing. It's never going back to how it was. The rebels and the naysayers can either accept that or watch one of the few sports left to embrace technology. 


Edited by planning - 25 Jun 2019 at 11:06pm
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Writing in bigger font makes the case for or against VAR inarguable. 
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