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Liam Brady
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NewtNewbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2020 at 11:55pm
Originally posted by FrankosHereNow FrankosHereNow wrote:

Originally posted by NewtNewbie NewtNewbie wrote:

Originally posted by FrankosHereNow FrankosHereNow wrote:

You’d be in favour of Ireland leaving the EU unless I’m confusing you with somebody else.

Absolutely. I'm on the political left.
That’s strange considering it’s only the far right parties that support it, Europe wide.

 
Wrong.

Try making a convincing Leftwing case for the neoliberal, corporate-driven, pro-privatisation, anti-nation-state, anti-state-aid, pro-austerity, anti-union, corrupt, anti-democratic, German-run EU, if you can, and I'll start to listen.


Edited by NewtNewbie - 22 Jul 2020 at 11:56pm
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Liam Brady
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NewtNewbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2020 at 11:57pm
Originally posted by doherty doherty wrote:

Originally posted by NewtNewbie NewtNewbie wrote:

Forty years of Liberal economics has created a unimaginably wealthy plutocratic elite with a degree of power that dwarfs most sovereign states, a wealth devide that would make the Victorians blush, and an impoverished underclass for whom social mobility is but a distant dream.

This is real extremism. And this is what those in charge in their various guises prop up and perpetuate.

Yawn. 

It's obviously well past your bedtime young man.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NewtNewbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2020 at 12:03am
Originally posted by FrankosHereNow FrankosHereNow wrote:

Originally posted by Jackal Jackal wrote:

Originally posted by FrankosHereNow FrankosHereNow wrote:

Originally posted by NewtNewbie NewtNewbie wrote:

Originally posted by FrankosHereNow FrankosHereNow wrote:

You’d be in favour of Ireland leaving the EU unless I’m confusing you with somebody else.

Absolutely. I'm on the political left.
That’s strange considering it’s only the far right parties that support it, Europe wide.
In Ireland, the left wing parties are very anti Europe. SF has only changed their mind in the last few years.
Sinn Fein are populist. There’s no proper left wing parties in Ireland. Putin, Trump, le Pen, Farage, Hermann Kelly, Gemma O’Doherty all support the break up of the EU. You have to question your viewpoint if you share the same beliefs as these people.

I pride myself on what I am, not what I'm not.

What's considered 'fashionable' or the 'done thing' doesn't interest me in the least.

Did you witness what happened in Greece, or Cyprus, for example?

How can any right-minded person even try and justify that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2020 at 1:28am
Anti-EU nutcases are like anti-vaxxers, f**k all point in arguing with them, they all have extreme cases of Dunning-Kruger syndrome
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NewtNewbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2020 at 6:49am
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Anti-EU nutcases are like anti-vaxxers, f**k all point in arguing with them, they all have extreme cases of Dunning-Kruger syndrome

Says the biggest crank on here. Why are you always pissing and moaning if you're so in favour of the status quo? You've won.

Stop letting your paranoiac obsession with phantom far-right conspiracies and hatred of Russians getting to you and try and enjoy it.


Edited by NewtNewbie - 23 Jul 2020 at 6:50am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2020 at 8:19am
Originally posted by FrankosHereNow FrankosHereNow wrote:

 You have to question your viewpoint if you share the same beliefs as these people.

There are Irish politicians and elected representatives who believe in the so called "Left-Wing Exit (Lexit). There is an opposition to the type of Brexit that is happening, namely a Tory one, but that doesn't mean the ultimate shared goal of departing from the EU, or weakening it, are not shared by people on the left and right. The only show in town in terms of EU disintegration is the Brexit spearheaded by a Tory Government, and supported by people who support them, and to a further extent the UKIPPer type. But if offered a Brexit deal, on the back of a Labour spearheaded campaign, there are a lot of people who oppose Brexit in its current form, that would change their tune very quickly. Newt mentioned Greece in a previous post. Its worth digging around about the people screeching about the EU's final deal with Greece in 2015, and how they saw the EU as a massive problem, as opposed to a fiscally irresponsible member state that thought it would stick two fingers up at the rest.

The left and right wing opposition to the EU is often used as an example of the dubious "horseshoe theory", the outcome would indeed be the same, but the left and right oppose the EU for very different reasons.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2020 at 10:13am
Originally posted by NewtNewbie NewtNewbie wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Anti-EU nutcases are like anti-vaxxers, f**k all point in arguing with them, they all have extreme cases of Dunning-Kruger syndrome

Says the biggest crank on here. Why are you always pissing and moaning if you're so in favour of the status quo? You've won.

Stop letting your paranoiac obsession with phantom far-right conspiracies and hatred of Russians getting to you and try and enjoy it.
Looks like we have a projectile troll

Let's call him Breitbart Newt


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shedite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2020 at 10:15am
Originally posted by NewtNewbie NewtNewbie wrote:

Amazon founder Jeff Bezos makes $13 billion in one day – more than the GDP of almost 80 countries


Dispicable. This is what the Liberal status quo looks like. This is true far- right extremism.

What will the Liberal pin-ups, Biden, Macron, Trudeau, et al, do about this?
He didn't really make 13bn in one day, his net worth went up 13bn in one day. That's calculating all the shares he has in Amazon, multiplied by the share price. And that was Monday, which was the biggest increase in Amazon's share price in 5 years, it's back down Tue and Wed this week, but I guess "Bezos loses $13bn in one day" doesn't get clicks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2020 at 10:40am
The EU is a neoliberal and neocolonial cartel that is designed to keep money and wealth in former colonial powers. It is, by it's very design and nature, racist. 
That isn't to say that no good at all has come out of it, Europe being,largely, at peace for 75 years is no small feat, but the drive to make it another superstate to compete with the USA, Russia and China is hardly good for the world and its development.
In fact, I would say that the moves towards a more unified and powerful Europe are a lot of what pissed the little Englanders off, as they feel they can compete with the 'big three' on their own. This is, of course, nonsense. 

I certainly wouldn't be in favour of the EU or comfortable with what it has become, but it has made it very difficult for states such as Ireland to do anything but go along with, but in going along with it we have to accept what we have become.
Financially it is far better for us, but it is morally bankrupting. Look how we benefit from applying immoral taxes on global behemoths, but small countries in the Caribbean, themselves former colonies, are blacklisted by the EU, and that is indeed the racially questionable term used!
The EU spends more on controlling its borders than African aid(€30 billion on borders and migration controls, 26.2 million on aid to Sub-Saharan Africa in 2018).
How much money do major EU companies make from Africa? Why is France, despite the otherwise despicable Macron's noble language, still reliant on 'former' colonies?

I do think the best that can be done is to try and change it from within, but like anything that has taken on rampant neoliberalism, this is very difficult; especially when you add in the colonial, or neocolonial, nature of the EU.

The reason people were angry and misguided enough to vote for a Farage   Brexit or to vote FN in France was this, but, as ever, they were sold nationalist rhetoric and told to blame those fleeing war zones said economics had created.

Regardless of people's own views on Europe and what it has become, it is impossible to be pro-European and left-wing.
 It is also worth noting that in Sweden and Denmark left-wing Euroscepticism is the default position! Meet any socialist from those countries and they are shocked that people who claim to be socialist can be so unyielding in their support of the project.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MC Hammered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2020 at 11:20am

With our geographic location beside the Brits, I'm a lot more comfortable with Ireland in the EU than if we were out of it. 


Edited by MC Hammered - 23 Jul 2020 at 11:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2020 at 11:27am
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

The EU is a neoliberal and neocolonial cartel that is designed to keep money and wealth in former colonial powers. It is, by it's very design and nature, racist. 
That isn't to say that no good at all has come out of it, Europe being,largely, at peace for 75 years is no small feat, but the drive to make it another superstate to compete with the USA, Russia and China is hardly good for the world and its development.
In fact, I would say that the moves towards a more unified and powerful Europe are a lot of what pissed the little Englanders off, as they feel they can compete with the 'big three' on their own. This is, of course, nonsense. 

I certainly wouldn't be in favour of the EU or comfortable with what it has become, but it has made it very difficult for states such as Ireland to do anything but go along with, but in going along with it we have to accept what we have become.
Financially it is far better for us, but it is morally bankrupting. Look how we benefit from applying immoral taxes on global behemoths, but small countries in the Caribbean, themselves former colonies, are blacklisted by the EU, and that is indeed the racially questionable term used!
The EU spends more on controlling its borders than African aid(€30 billion on borders and migration controls, 26.2 million on aid to Sub-Saharan Africa in 2018).
How much money do major EU companies make from Africa? Why is France, despite the otherwise despicable Macron's noble language, still reliant on 'former' colonies?

I do think the best that can be done is to try and change it from within, but like anything that has taken on rampant neoliberalism, this is very difficult; especially when you add in the colonial, or neocolonial, nature of the EU.

The reason people were angry and misguided enough to vote for a Farage   Brexit or to vote FN in France was this, but, as ever, they were sold nationalist rhetoric and told to blame those fleeing war zones said economics had created.

Regardless of people's own views on Europe and what it has become, it is impossible to be pro-European and left-wing.
 It is also worth noting that in Sweden and Denmark left-wing Euroscepticism is the default position! Meet any socialist from those countries and they are shocked that people who claim to be socialist can be so unyielding in their support of the project.
Europe, or rather EU countries, have been at peace for for the last 75 years, but the EU, which allows free movement throughout all its member states, is by design racist? Christ.

The EU is an imperfect organisation and was always going to be such because its an umbrella of 27, formerly 28 countries. Shock horror, multi-national umbrella organisation which depends on consensus is imperfect.

The EU gives small countries power. Ireland has way more power in the EU than it would have otherwise.

Anybody who thinks Ireland should give that up and be bobbed around like a piece of driftwood on the waves of international trade and geopolitics is insane. 

The EU doesn't make the rules of global trade. Global trade is how it is because it has always been that way, and if you aren't part of a bloc, you're nothing.

If you want companies like Apple to be properly taxed, as I do, vote for political parties that will pledge to properly tax them - it was the EU who wanted to tax them, not Ireland. If you want proper taxing of multi-nationals, you want greater EU federalism, not less.

If you want to transition to a green economy, you're way, way better off inside the EU than outside it.

The solution for African, Asian and South American countries is to form proper trading blocs of their own. An African Union seems a no brainer. That's how you get power on a global stage - by pooling sovereignty. 

If Sweden and Denmark are not left-wing, I don't know what is left-wing. Denmark takes around 45% of its GDP in tax. That seems pretty left-wing to me.

The reason a socialist would support the EU is because they live in the real world. The reason a socialist would not support the EU is because they don't live in the real world. 

Leave the EU, hello anarcho-capitalist, beggar thy neighbour dystopia.






Edited by sid waddell - 23 Jul 2020 at 11:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2020 at 11:54am
Firstly, nowhere did I say leave. I couldn't have been f**king clearer if I tried, but the ability of people to choose what they are arguing with is exactly the f**king problem. You get all ratty on here when someone ignores points you have made to pick and choose to suit their argument, and rightly so, but then you do the exact same thing.
To put it as simply as is not possible to be ignored: Ireland's far better off in the European Union, but we cannot claim the moral high ground about our past history when our present is benefiting solely on the basis of geographical location and being a member of a project that turns a blind-eye to our taxation system while simultaneously punishing former colonies for similar tax independence.

But yes, it is racist. Spending more money on defending your borders and migration control than helping those people in the first place, or even attempting to stop the illegal sale of weapons to regimes and states involved in genocide, is racist. Not having war in Europe is a tremendous thing, but I have some scepticism on whether that was learned through the horrors of WW2, itself the result of extreme capitalism, or the fact that there was more money to be made selling the weapons to those without the means to turn it back on Fortress Europe. The deliberate mishandling of the migrant crisis by the European Union suggests it is as at least as much the former as the latter. The consequences of colonialism still benefit Europe and the EU is designed to maximise this.

Blacklisting, and calling it f**king blacklisting, of Caribbean states because of their tax laws, while supporting Ireland, or because fabricated financial corruption, whilst openly trading through Amsterdam and London, is racist. Not giving them an opportunity to complain is nothing short of racist colonialism, all dressed up as modern liberalism. 

Who do you think are major problems in forming an African trade bloc, do you think? Definitely not France, no way! Not a hope! But, I suppose they do that individually and not as part of the EU? I'm sure the liberal EU would react the same way if Orban decided to start interfering in Somalia, as an outrageous example.
How critical is the EU of petrochemical companies who rampage through Nigeria? Silence is compliance.

Again, just to make it absolutely f**king clear, I never said Ireland should leave, but it should try and use its influence for good.
The tenets of my argument are fairly simple: there is more logic for the left to be critical of the EU than the right, as is backed up by our Scandinavian friends on the left.

The biggest problem over here since the Brexit vote is the oversimplification of everything. The panacea to all ills is either rejoining or leaving as quickly as possible, completely ignoring the reality that Britain has been f**ked by forty years of self-serving governments. I truly hope that when all this Brexit sh*thousery is over that people realise that, but I won't be holding my breath.

 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2020 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Firstly, nowhere did I say leave. I couldn't have been f**king clearer if I tried, but the ability of people to choose what they are arguing with is exactly the f**king problem. You get all ratty on here when someone ignores points you have made to pick and choose to suit their argument, and rightly so, but then you do the exact same thing.
To put it as simply as is not possible to be ignored: Ireland's far better off in the European Union, but we cannot claim the moral high ground about our past history when our present is benefiting solely on the basis of geographical location and being a member of a project that turns a blind-eye to our taxation system while simultaneously punishing former colonies for similar tax independence.

But yes, it is racist. Spending more money on defending your borders and migration control than helping those people in the first place, or even attempting to stop the illegal sale of weapons to regimes and states involved in genocide, is racist. Not having war in Europe is a tremendous thing, but I have some scepticism on whether that was learned through the horrors of WW2, itself the result of extreme capitalism, or the fact that there was more money to be made selling the weapons to those without the means to turn it back on Fortress Europe. The deliberate mishandling of the migrant crisis by the European Union suggests it is as at least as much the former as the latter. The consequences of colonialism still benefit Europe and the EU is designed to maximise this.

Blacklisting, and calling it f**king blacklisting, of Caribbean states because of their tax laws, while supporting Ireland, or because fabricated financial corruption, whilst openly trading through Amsterdam and London, is racist. Not giving them an opportunity to complain is nothing short of racist colonialism, all dressed up as modern liberalism. 

Who do you think are major problems in forming an African trade bloc, do you think? Definitely not France, no way! Not a hope! But, I suppose they do that individually and not as part of the EU? I'm sure the liberal EU would react the same way if Orban decided to start interfering in Somalia, as an outrageous example.
How critical is the EU of petrochemical companies who rampage through Nigeria? Silence is compliance.

Again, just to make it absolutely f**king clear, I never said Ireland should leave, but it should try and use its influence for good.
The tenets of my argument are fairly simple: there is more logic for the left to be critical of the EU than the right, as is backed up by our Scandinavian friends on the left.

The biggest problem over here since the Brexit vote is the oversimplification of everything. The panacea to all ills is either rejoining or leaving as quickly as possible, completely ignoring the reality that Britain has been f**ked by forty years of self-serving governments. I truly hope that when all this Brexit sh*thousery is over that people realise that, but I won't be holding my breath.

You say the EU is racist but you're not giving concrete examples. 

There are racist states and governments in the EU, Poland and Hungary certainly are. But that is not "the EU". 

The EU went after Ireland on tax, it lost, hopefully it will go after them again.

The EU has no competency on non-EU migration into member states. That's the individual member states' competency. 

The EU wanted a more equitable share of refugees by member state, but the member states said no, and the EU cannot force individual states to take more against the wishes of individual governments.

People criticise the EU as if it is a United States of Europe. It isn't. Its powers are actually pretty limited.

The irony is that most of the "anti-EU" arguments are actually a call for a proper federal United States of Europe without even realising it.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2020 at 12:54pm
Blacklisting countries for no apparent reason, other than they have a majority black population, is racist.
Spending more  on migration controls than helping vulnerable people, people who are fleeing from weapons made by EU member states is racist.
That's concrete and nothing to do with member states, but the central EU treasury. 

The EU went after Ireland on tax, but it refuses to deal with several Caribbean countries for what it sees as  tax abuses. It refuses to deal with certain Caribbean countries due to corruption, but deals with and through London and Amsterdam. It deals with Saudi Arabia, but not Trinidad. 

Again, nowhere did I mention or imply a 'United States of Europe'. It is another example of you choosing what you are arguing against. The EU, not individual members, has done the above. If you inferred it that is your problem; you're arguing with yourself, albeit you're correct in suggesting that arguing against it strengthens the case for it. As an internationalist, I'm not against any pan-national project in theory, but globalisation leaves me cynical.

It has made little or no criticism of individual members who still benefit from colonialism, but criticises small, poor black majority island states to the point of refusing to trade with them for far less.
It rightly criticises Russia,and occasionally China, stopping short of doing anything, but has it ever criticised France's behaviour in Africa? There is barely a mention of individual state's arm sales. Has anyone criticised an independent report released this week into German arm sales to Saudi Arabia? Do you think they will? 
Yet the punish non-members for far lesser crimes because they can. It is bullying, and the bullying of states based on their ethnic majority is racism.

You can still believe in the overall good of the project; you can say, as was rightly mentioned above, that Ireland's geographical location means it provides security. My basic argument is still that it makes more sense to be critical, and indeed outright against, the EU from the left than the right. Those who are truly against it on the right, and understand it, are nearly all in it for personal gain, by then convincing those who are struggling financially that waving a flag will make everything better. That is unquestionably a swindle. But Euroscepticism is perfectly understandable from a Marxist perspective, given the above ideology and theory that is imposes by the parliament in Brussels. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2020 at 1:45pm
The list of non co-operative jurisdictions for tax purposes, contains Council reasoning for why the state has ended up on the list, and the ways in which it can be removed from the list. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2020 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Blacklisting countries for no apparent reason, other than they have a majority black population, is racist.
Spending more  on migration controls than helping vulnerable people, people who are fleeing from weapons made by EU member states is racist.
That's concrete and nothing to do with member states, but the central EU treasury. 

The EU went after Ireland on tax, but it refuses to deal with several Caribbean countries for what it sees as  tax abuses. It refuses to deal with certain Caribbean countries due to corruption, but deals with and through London and Amsterdam. It deals with Saudi Arabia, but not Trinidad. 

Again, nowhere did I mention or imply a 'United States of Europe'. It is another example of you choosing what you are arguing against. The EU, not individual members, has done the above. If you inferred it that is your problem; you're arguing with yourself, albeit you're correct in suggesting that arguing against it strengthens the case for it. As an internationalist, I'm not against any pan-national project in theory, but globalisation leaves me cynical.

It has made little or no criticism of individual members who still benefit from colonialism, but criticises small, poor black majority island states to the point of refusing to trade with them for far less.
It rightly criticises Russia,and occasionally China, stopping short of doing anything, but has it ever criticised France's behaviour in Africa? There is barely a mention of individual state's arm sales. Has anyone criticised an independent report released this week into German arm sales to Saudi Arabia? Do you think they will? 
Yet the punish non-members for far lesser crimes because they can. It is bullying, and the bullying of states based on their ethnic majority is racism.

You can still believe in the overall good of the project; you can say, as was rightly mentioned above, that Ireland's geographical location means it provides security. My basic argument is still that it makes more sense to be critical, and indeed outright against, the EU from the left than the right. Those who are truly against it on the right, and understand it, are nearly all in it for personal gain, by then convincing those who are struggling financially that waving a flag will make everything better. That is unquestionably a swindle. But Euroscepticism is perfectly understandable from a Marxist perspective, given the above ideology and theory that is imposes by the parliament in Brussels. 
You say the EU is "blacklisting countries" because of tax yet simultaneously say its because they have a majority black population, all while admitting they used their limited powers to go after Ireland on tax.

Sorry, but this is bullsh*t narrativising. You could just as easily use a bad faith narrative to say that any campaign against what Saudi Arabia or China do is "racist". 

Amazingly enough  the EU tends to look out for the interests of its members vis a vis non-members. If  a non-member is doing something it perceives as harmful to its members, it can act how it wants as regards the non-member. That's global trade. But, conversely, globalisation is not going away. Globalisation is a function of technology. Wishing it away will not work. 

Saudi Arabia has massive global power because it has masses of oil. Sorry to break it to you. Yes, they are scumbags, but they literally have us over a barrel. The best way to curb and ultimately destroy Saudi Arabia's power over other countries (and this goes for Russia too) is for the world to transition to a green economy, and the EU is our friend if we are ever to do that.

The EU is very imperfect. It is also a product of who people elect in different countries. You make it better by electing better people. 

Want to stop arms sales to sh*tty countries? Start electing people who will make it an issue, support grass roots civil society activist campaigns that will make it an issue. Shaming countries who do so is the only way to do this. The EU doesn't have competency to stop Germany or Sweden or the Brits selling arms. Does it have the competency to shame countries? Yes. Again, that's a function of who we elect.

Change is piecemeal and a f**king grind, and because there are hundreds of millions of people in the EU, there are a lot of people with different views to you or me. Change only happens by organisation to change opinions, to persuade. It doesn't happen overnight.

Lexit, for any country, is a fantasy. 






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2020 at 2:02pm
Yet again you are arguing with something I didn't say. So f**k off you stupid ****! You are also qualifying racism as acceptable due to politics. That doesn't mean it isn't racism. Go back to trying to be funny at four in the morning.
See you all again the next time I am bored and Twitter is dull.LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2020 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Yet again you are arguing with something I didn't say. So f**k off you stupid ****! You are also qualifying racism as acceptable due to politics. That doesn't mean it isn't racism. Go back to trying to be funny at four in the morning.
See you all again the next time I am bored and Twitter is dull.LOL
With respect, that's a load of claptrap.
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