You Boys in Green Homepage YBIG Shop
Forum Home Forum Home : Other Forums : Whatever!
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - U.S Politics
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

U.S Politics
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 223224225226227 334>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
irishmufc View Drop Down
Robbie Keane
Robbie Keane
Avatar
I love Vulvas

Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Location: Dublin
Status: Offline
Points: 25059 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irishmufc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 11:49am
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

This is not true. US institutions have failed miserably. It was failure on behalf of US institutions, both state institutions such as the FBI and US intelligence, and societal institutions such as the the media that he got to be in the position he is in now in the first place. And their institutions have completely failed to curb him in any way.

That wouldn't go to a failure of the separation of powers though. Thats independent institutions failing in their duties and roles. 

Exactly. There is a separation of powers with the 3 branches of government but without enforcement from the judicial & legislative branch, then the laws and powers they have are redundant.  
Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
Back to Top
sid waddell View Drop Down
Roy Keane
Roy Keane

On a dark desert highway

Joined: 20 Nov 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 12173 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

This is not true. US institutions have failed miserably. It was failure on behalf of US institutions, both state institutions such as the FBI and US intelligence, and societal institutions such as the the media that he got to be in the position he is in now in the first place. And their institutions have completely failed to curb him in any way.

That wouldn't go to a failure of the separation of powers though. Thats independent institutions failing in their duties and roles. 

Exactly. There is a separation of powers with the 3 branches of government but without enforcement from the judicial & legislative branch, then the laws and powers they have are redundant.  
The point is that independent institutions are no longer independent. 

The DOJ for instance has been completely corrupted by Barr, who is a shamelessly corrupt bad actor.

The Republican controlled Senate is not independent. It is an instrument of Trump's fascist power because the Repblican party has wholesale become a party of fascism. 

The courts, stacked with far right ideologues, the Supreme Court an instrument of far right corporate power. 

The police, the Army, the FBI, people are dreaming if they think these institutions haven't been massively corrupted by Trump and turned into quasi-Stasi/Gestapo type organisations.

The rot in Trump's America goes almost unbelievably deep. People had better start believing how far it goes, because Novemeber will likely be the final proof, and by the time people finally wake up, it'll be too late.

This has all been obvious since the start, but far too many people do not want to believe it.






Edited by sid waddell - 05 Jun 2020 at 6:11pm
Back to Top
irishmufc View Drop Down
Robbie Keane
Robbie Keane
Avatar
I love Vulvas

Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Location: Dublin
Status: Offline
Points: 25059 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irishmufc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 6:20pm
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

This is not true. US institutions have failed miserably. It was failure on behalf of US institutions, both state institutions such as the FBI and US intelligence, and societal institutions such as the the media that he got to be in the position he is in now in the first place. And their institutions have completely failed to curb him in any way.

That wouldn't go to a failure of the separation of powers though. Thats independent institutions failing in their duties and roles. 

Exactly. There is a separation of powers with the 3 branches of government but without enforcement from the judicial & legislative branch, then the laws and powers they have are redundant.  
The point is that independent institutions are no longer independent. 

The DOJ for instance has been completely corrupted by Barr, who is a shamelessly corrupt bad actor.

The Republican controlled Senate is not independent. It is an instrument of Trump's fascist power because the Repblican party has wholesale become a party of fascism. 

The courts, stacked with far right ideologues, the Supreme Court an instrument of far right corporate power. 

The police, the Army, the FBI, people are dreaming if they think these institutions haven't been massively corrupted by Trump and turned into quasi-Stasi/Gestapo type organisations.

The rot in Trump's America goes almost unbelievably deep. People had better start believing how far it goes, because Novemeber will likely be the final proof, and by the time people finally wake up, it'll be too late.

This has all been obvious since the start, but far too many people do not want to believe it.





I think myself and Hetfield are in agreement with you as we're basically saying the same thing. We know those institutions have been corrupted which is why they are currently failing in their duties. It doesn't mean that the idea behind independent institutions and checks and balances is wrong. 
Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
Back to Top
Het-field View Drop Down
Roy Keane
Roy Keane

By Appointment to His Majesty The King

Joined: 08 Mar 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 10532 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:


I think myself and Hetfield are in agreement with you as we're basically saying the same thing. We know those institutions have been corrupted which is why they are currently failing in their duties. It doesn't mean that the idea behind independent institutions and checks and balances is wrong. 

Precisely. Simply because something doesn't function the way you like, doesn't mean it isn't functioning, or that it is not useful. And the functioning of the press etc, insofar as it relates to the separation of powers sits outside of that. The independence of the judiciary means it is free from the legislative or Executive branch telling it what to do, or overruling decisions, not about appointments, it never was. 


Edited by Het-field - 05 Jun 2020 at 6:34pm
Back to Top
sid waddell View Drop Down
Roy Keane
Roy Keane

On a dark desert highway

Joined: 20 Nov 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 12173 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 6:38pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:


I think myself and Hetfield are in agreement with you as we're basically saying the same thing. We know those institutions have been corrupted which is why they are currently failing in their duties. It doesn't mean that the idea behind independent institutions and checks and balances is wrong. 

Precisely. Simply because something doesn't function the way you like, doesn't mean it isn't functioning, or that it is not useful. And the functioning of the press etc, insofar as it relates to the separation of powers sits outside of that. The independence of the judiciary means it is free from the legislative or Executive branch telling it what to do, or overruling decisions, not about appointments, it never was. 
I think you're very naive about what is happening in America at the moment.

Independence of institutions is a rapidly diminishing thing. 

Freedom itself is a rapidly diminishing thing.

I think November is likely to be the end of anything even resembling what could be even tenuously be called democracy.

Trump, through Barr, literally overruled justice just a few weeks ago when his buddy Flynn was let off despite pleading guilty.


Edited by sid waddell - 05 Jun 2020 at 6:40pm
Back to Top
Het-field View Drop Down
Roy Keane
Roy Keane

By Appointment to His Majesty The King

Joined: 08 Mar 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 10532 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 6:58pm
Its not nativity though. Independence of institutions is something a lot deeper and a lot more enduring that individual administrations. Trust me, America right now has fallen into a state of repair that it would regularly allege of other countries. I appreciate, that in pandemic times the vote in November could be seriously compromised. But this is a far cry from Russia, who in four weeks could see a vote passed that leaves Putin in power for well over a decade to come. 

However, the executive cannot tell the judiciary how to think in real terms. In Ireland, you are seeing commentscreep into the Dail a bit where politicians willingly criticise judicial decisions. Trump cannot overrule the decisions of the court.


Edited by Het-field - 05 Jun 2020 at 6:59pm
Back to Top
irishmufc View Drop Down
Robbie Keane
Robbie Keane
Avatar
I love Vulvas

Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Location: Dublin
Status: Offline
Points: 25059 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irishmufc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 7:20pm
Anyone see Rudy Giuliani attacking Piers Morgan and the "left wing media" he's supposedly a part of on Good Morning Britain? LOL

The same Piers Morgan who couldn't take his tongue out of Trump's arse for years. 
Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
Back to Top
pre Madonna View Drop Down
Robbie Keane
Robbie Keane
Avatar
I am MALDING

Joined: 30 Nov 2014
Location: Trumpton
Status: Offline
Points: 44659 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 7:33pm
Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Anyone see Rudy Giuliani attacking Piers Morgan and the "left wing media" he's supposedly a part of on Good Morning Britain? LOL

The same Piers Morgan who couldn't take his tongue out of Trump's arse for years. 
I'm certain Morgan was struck by lightning. I still wouldn't trust him an inch, and he certainly shouldn't have a platform, but he is suddenly trying to hold the right people to account. 
Back to Top
Green Cockade View Drop Down
Liam Brady
Liam Brady
Avatar

Joined: 22 Jan 2020
Location: Belfast
Status: Offline
Points: 2673 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Green Cockade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 10:57pm
He is. He can be a formidable journalist when he chooses. Extracting your tongue from the rectum of a sociopath is unfortunately a long and arduous process and the fellow has a long way to travel before he can be taken in any way seriously ever again.
Back to Top
coyne View Drop Down
Paul McGrath
Paul McGrath
Avatar

Joined: 17 Aug 2013
Location: Sunderland
Status: Offline
Points: 15881 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2020 at 12:21am
Piers The Redeemer Clap

He is living proof that not all heroes wear capes.
Back to Top
sid waddell View Drop Down
Roy Keane
Roy Keane

On a dark desert highway

Joined: 20 Nov 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 12173 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2020 at 12:48am
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Its not nativity though. Independence of institutions is something a lot deeper and a lot more enduring that individual administrations. Trust me, America right now has fallen into a state of repair that it would regularly allege of other countries. I appreciate, that in pandemic times the vote in November could be seriously compromised. But this is a far cry from Russia, who in four weeks could see a vote passed that leaves Putin in power for well over a decade to come. 

However, the executive cannot tell the judiciary how to think in real terms. In Ireland, you are seeing commentscreep into the Dail a bit where politicians willingly criticise judicial decisions. Trump cannot overrule the decisions of the court.
The judiciary and the DOJ are already in Trump's pocket. 

I've spent the last three and a half years listening to institutionalists tell us about the strength of American institutions. They've been wrong every step of the way. For a while I wanted to believe this myself, but by mid-2018 it was obvious that American institutions just were not holding up. A key part of fascism is purging, and Trump has purged and will continue to purge institutions of good people, so that only the knuckle draggers are left.

I'd strongly advise people to read or listen to what Sarah Kendzior has to say on this. She has been right every step of the way when the majority of liberal establishment commentators were baselessly reassuring people "we got this", because she saw Trump not though American norms, as too many liberal establishment commentators did, but through the framework of fascism and authoritarianism worldwide, and particularly in the post-Soviet states. What Trump is doing and will do should be seen through the framework of Russia, Uzbekistan or indeed Nazi Germany, rather than through anything that has gone before in America. 

American exceptionalism is one of the most stupid ideas ever invented and it has blinded people to an extraordinary degree to the existential danger posed by Trump. There's nothing exceptional about America or American institutions, it was as vulnerable to fascist authoritarianism as anywhere else.

And nobody should count on the Army or the police or the FBI or the law to put things right if Trump loses in November (which he won't, he'll steal the election). These institutions are now fatally compromised. 


Edited by sid waddell - 06 Jun 2020 at 12:50am
Back to Top
Het-field View Drop Down
Roy Keane
Roy Keane

By Appointment to His Majesty The King

Joined: 08 Mar 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 10532 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2020 at 10:02am
Again, the Judiciary cannot be in anybody's pocket, unless their decisions and rulings are being directly overruled by legislation or executive order. Its not about who appoints them. If that's the case, the SCOTUS will be "in the pocket" of the numerous presidents who were in charge when they were appointed , and spread across numerous administrations, and can't be specifically beholden to any one President. The SOP's is not about appointment, or who appoints them. its the ability to act without other institutions. The only way that could happen is if the Executive were to try to sack dissenting members of the Court, and replaced them with their own people. My point is, this is not a SOP issue. It does have to do with the people involved though.

The issues relating to the concept of Exceptionalism, and law enforcement, would equally be of concern to me. We are seeing it right now, and like you say, American has not seen this thing before. However, if the integrity of the ballot box be maintained, the first steps towards ending the nightmare could be just a few months away.
Back to Top
sid waddell View Drop Down
Roy Keane
Roy Keane

On a dark desert highway

Joined: 20 Nov 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 12173 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2020 at 11:24am
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Again, the Judiciary cannot be in anybody's pocket, unless their decisions and rulings are being directly overruled by legislation or executive order. Its not about who appoints them. If that's the case, the SCOTUS will be "in the pocket" of the numerous presidents who were in charge when they were appointed , and spread across numerous administrations, and can't be specifically beholden to any one President. The SOP's is not about appointment, or who appoints them. its the ability to act without other institutions. The only way that could happen is if the Executive were to try to sack dissenting members of the Court, and replaced them with their own people. My point is, this is not a SOP issue. It does have to do with the people involved though.

Anthony Kennedy was already, how shall I say this, "encouraged" to step down by Trump, who shares the same bank Kennedy's son works for. 

Garland was blocked for a year by Republicans. 

The judiciary is an all out war front for them, among many. What they have in Barr and in their many stacked judges are not upholders of the law, but an army of Carl Schmitts, who twist the law to make criminality legal. Judicial activists for criminality, in other words.

Trump has given a blatant two fingers to law and due process, and law and due process has failed utterly to hold him any sort of account, sometimes because law is powerless to stop fascists, but often by design or because of cowardly "institutionalism", as in the case of Mueller. 

Law has always worked for the rich, powerful and white in the US. It doesn't work for the tax paying little people. 

Flynn: not in prison.
Manafort: not in prison.
Stone: not in prison.

Epstein: let off with a rap on the knuckles for decaades of paedophilia, now dead because he suddenly became inconvenient to Trump.

Millions of black men: in prison.

Russian-style justice.








Edited by sid waddell - 06 Jun 2020 at 11:26am
Back to Top
Het-field View Drop Down
Roy Keane
Roy Keane

By Appointment to His Majesty The King

Joined: 08 Mar 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 10532 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2020 at 11:30am
Again, not a Separation of Powers issue. This is an issue about the people in charge, as opposed to a SOP malfunctioning. 
Back to Top
sid waddell View Drop Down
Roy Keane
Roy Keane

On a dark desert highway

Joined: 20 Nov 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 12173 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2020 at 11:44am
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Again, not a Separation of Powers issue. This is an issue about the people in charge, as opposed to a SOP malfunctioning. 

Under fascism, there is no separation of powers because ultimate power does not respect the law, it becomes "the law". That's the point. And that's what we're seeing in America. 

There is no system that stands up to fascism.


Edited by sid waddell - 06 Jun 2020 at 11:44am
Back to Top
Het-field View Drop Down
Roy Keane
Roy Keane

By Appointment to His Majesty The King

Joined: 08 Mar 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 10532 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2020 at 11:46am
Sid, that's just rhetoric. Until Court decisions are being reversed by actions of the other arms of Governance, it remains intact.

That doesn't mean that America is not going in an incredibly scary direction. But that's a different point.
Back to Top
sid waddell View Drop Down
Roy Keane
Roy Keane

On a dark desert highway

Joined: 20 Nov 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 12173 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2020 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Sid, that's just rhetoric. Until Court decisions are being reversed by actions of the other arms of Governance, it remains intact.

That doesn't mean that America is not going in an incredibly scary direction. But that's a different point.
If court decisions are being made by unqualified judges who are brought in to act on behalf of criminality - and they are - your point falls away.

The whole point is you dont have to overturn anything, beecause you get the verdicts you want in the first place.
Back to Top
Het-field View Drop Down
Roy Keane
Roy Keane

By Appointment to His Majesty The King

Joined: 08 Mar 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 10532 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2020 at 12:29pm
The point remains, that its for the executive/legislature to overrule court decisions before you lose the separate powers. Its too nuanced a thing to properly be done away with by the appointment of a few judges during the course of a presidency. The Venezualen constitutional crisis is a good example of how to toss the separate powers totally out the window, and that has been upon entities totally usurping executive power, and single politicians overruling judicial decisions.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 223224225226227 334>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.00
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.