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The Decline of the EPL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2020 at 9:50am
Originally posted by Devrozex Devrozex wrote:

Originally posted by bundy bundy wrote:

[

2004 Arsenal- that team was exceptional to watch because they looked like they played in 2nd gear for the entire season. They never panicked and they used to stroll around playing possession football and just destroy teams gracefully. For me that was the best team I’ve ever seen playing football with some truly gifted, natural players all over the pitch. Completely underrated team even after going unbeaten. Because they didn’t push on and win a Champions League or another Premier League after that people dismiss them.
 
That seems like an incredibly rose-tinted view of that side! If there were as good as you're making them out to be there's no way they would have failed to win nearly a third of the games they played that season. They were also very disappointing in the CL that season too - struggling through a weak group and getting knocked out in the quarters.
It is very difficult to compare but the gap between the richest and most successful in the league back then was not as extreme, hence the points totals. The CL was also more competitive, albeit the beginnings of the snooze fest we have now were there.

My own preference would be for that Arsenal team, but I just remember them being lovely to watch in full flow and the game hadn’t become overanalysed to the point it has now, meaning they had individual talent that was a pleasure to watch, especially Bergkamp.
I would imagine the current Liverpool side would expect to beat them in an imaginary match though, due to the improvements in fitness, for whatever reasons, and the resources available. By that I don’t just mean money, but there is a much smaller pool of elite clubs now and most elite players are at those clubs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Devrozex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2020 at 10:01am
I'd certainly agree they were great to watch alright. I'm just not sure how someone could feel they are 'underrated' though? By who exactly? They're known fairly ubiquitously as 'the Invincibles' ffs. LOL I always felt the opposite was true. It was obviously an incredible achievement to go unbeaten in the league but they had a lot of things go their way that season.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2020 at 10:04am
Yeah, they certainly aren’t underrated. I just think it was much harder for a side to go unbeaten then and you certainly needed a bit of luck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Moleman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2020 at 10:36am
Originally posted by BrendanD88 BrendanD88 wrote:

Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

@ shoco so if Liverpool were in Serie A this season, they wouldn't be unbeaten or top in a commanding position? Is Serie A or any of the other leagues better than the PL?

Btw, this started from you downplaying Liverpools unbeaten run as they are in a '1 team league. Even the SPL is more competitive which says something'. Absolute nonsense and everyone grasps clearly what you are at. It's the poorest of attempts. 
 
Another bizarre comment.
 
Ifs, buts or maybes! Who the f**k knows where they would be.

I know. If Liverpool were in any of the other major European leagues this season, they would end it as champions. If they were in Serie A, they would have a very similar points total to now as Serie A is a weaker league than the PL currently by quite a bit.

This whole discussion is based around knocking Liverpools achievements so far. As if Liverpool had lost 4/5 league games and were top by a couple of points this would somehow make the PL stronger this season and Liverpool better. Liverpool are just miles ahead of everyone this season. If they are miles ahead of everyone in England, they would undoubtedly have a similar record in Italy (a league way behind the PL currently in UEFA rankings).

The only thing bizarre is people implying that what Liverpool are doing isn't incredible stuff. It is, by every metric. The big thing for Liverpool now is back to back CL titles which I think they are well capable of. That is what will put them into a discussion as one of the all time great club sides and this team still has a few years at it's peak left to achieve even more then.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberto Baggio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2020 at 11:55am
Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Originally posted by BrendanD88 BrendanD88 wrote:

Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

@ shoco so if Liverpool were in Serie A this season, they wouldn't be unbeaten or top in a commanding position? Is Serie A or any of the other leagues better than the PL?

Btw, this started from you downplaying Liverpools unbeaten run as they are in a '1 team league. Even the SPL is more competitive which says something'. Absolute nonsense and everyone grasps clearly what you are at. It's the poorest of attempts. 
 
Another bizarre comment.
 
Ifs, buts or maybes! Who the f**k knows where they would be.

I know. If Liverpool were in any of the other major European leagues this season, they would end it as champions. If they were in Serie A, they would have a very similar points total to now as Serie A is a weaker league than the PL currently by quite a bit.

This whole discussion is based around knocking Liverpools achievements so far. As if Liverpool had lost 4/5 league games and were top by a couple of points this would somehow make the PL stronger this season and Liverpool better. Liverpool are just miles ahead of everyone this season. If they are miles ahead of everyone in England, they would undoubtedly have a similar record in Italy (a league way behind the PL currently in UEFA rankings).

The only thing bizarre is people implying that what Liverpool are doing isn't incredible stuff. It is, by every metric. The big thing for Liverpool now is back to back CL titles which I think they are well capable of. That is what will put them into a discussion as one of the all time great club sides and this team still has a few years at it's peak left to achieve even more then.
 
In a nutshell
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrendanD88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2020 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Originally posted by BrendanD88 BrendanD88 wrote:

Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

@ shoco so if Liverpool were in Serie A this season, they wouldn't be unbeaten or top in a commanding position? Is Serie A or any of the other leagues better than the PL?

Btw, this started from you downplaying Liverpools unbeaten run as they are in a '1 team league. Even the SPL is more competitive which says something'. Absolute nonsense and everyone grasps clearly what you are at. It's the poorest of attempts. 
 
Another bizarre comment.
 
Ifs, buts or maybes! Who the f**k knows where they would be.

I know. If Liverpool were in any of the other major European leagues this season, they would end it as champions. If they were in Serie A, they would have a very similar points total to now as Serie A is a weaker league than the PL currently by quite a bit.

This whole discussion is based around knocking Liverpools achievements so far. As if Liverpool had lost 4/5 league games and were top by a couple of points this would somehow make the PL stronger this season and Liverpool better. Liverpool are just miles ahead of everyone this season. If they are miles ahead of everyone in England, they would undoubtedly have a similar record in Italy (a league way behind the PL currently in UEFA rankings).

The only thing bizarre is people implying that what Liverpool are doing isn't incredible stuff. It is, by every metric. The big thing for Liverpool now is back to back CL titles which I think they are well capable of. That is what will put them into a discussion as one of the all time great club sides and this team still has a few years at it's peak left to achieve even more then.
 
LOL
 
Are you factoring in the travelling Liverpool will have to do every other week playing in Serie A, acclimatising to the conditions etc? LOL
 
It's an absolutely ridiculous argument but I expect nothing else from your good self.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Moleman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2020 at 12:35pm
It's bizarre to say that Liverpool would be top of Serie A this season. Okkkkkk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrendanD88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2020 at 12:45pm
No it's a bizarre argument to pretty much dismiss any other team competing with Liverpool as they are dominating in England.
 
The fact remains they have won 21/22 Premier League games but have won 0/2 against an Italian opposition this season who are struggling in their respective league.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bundy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2020 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by Devrozex Devrozex wrote:

Originally posted by bundy bundy wrote:

[

2004 Arsenal- that team was exceptional to watch because they looked like they played in 2nd gear for the entire season. They never panicked and they used to stroll around playing possession football and just destroy teams gracefully. For me that was the best team I’ve ever seen playing football with some truly gifted, natural players all over the pitch. Completely underrated team even after going unbeaten. Because they didn’t push on and win a Champions League or another Premier League after that people dismiss them.
 
That seems like an incredibly rose-tinted view of that side! If there were as good as you're making them out to be there's no way they would have failed to win nearly a third of the games they played that season. They were also very disappointing in the CL that season too - struggling through a weak group and getting knocked out in the quarters.

First off I’m a Newcastle fan so there’s no bias at all. I just thought that Arsenal team were phenomenal to watch. I don’t care how many games they failed to win, I’m more interested in the number of games they lost which was zero. 

Two teams should have beaten them that season, United at Old Trafford when big Ruud missed the penalty and away at Newcastle around April of 2004. Lehman pulled off an unbelievable save from Bellamy with a couple of minutes left. I was sat about 10 rows back in the Gallowgate and it looked a goal for all money but Lehman got a big paw on it and clawed it off the line. 

The football that Arsenal team played I don’t think we’ll ever see it again in England. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Huntacha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2020 at 8:02pm
Van Nistelrooy hitting the bar with that peno and the Pires dive were the main things I can think of that went their way that season.

12 games is a lot to draw, especially when comparing it to more recent league winners. But that's what makes the achievement so remarkable (I'm an Arsenal fan but wouldn't agree with saying the achievement is underrated by the media or anyone else) when you compare to the records of the league winners around that time;

97/98 - Arsenal W23/D9/L6 (78 points) ; United W23/D8/L7 (77 Points)
98/99 - United W22/D13/L3 (79 Points);  Arsenal W 22/D12/L4 (78 Points)
99/00 - United W28/D7/L3 (91 Points) ; Arsenal finished 18 points behind
00/01 - United W24/D8/L6 (80 Points); Arsenal finished 10 points behind
01/02 - Arsenal W26/D9/L3 (87 Points); Liverpoool finished 7 points behind
02/03 - United W25/D8/L5 (83 Points); Arsenal W23/D9/L6 (78 Points)
03/04 - Arsenal W26/D12/L0 (90 Points); Chelsea finished 11 points behind

It was a lot more common back then to draw and lose games. Whether it's the squad depth of the teams at the top, increased professionalism or the increased resources these teams have access to is up for debate.

The failure in Europe is definitely a valid criticism (that Wayne Bridge goal will haunt me forever). Considering the quality of the teams left in the competition, it should definitely be considered a failure.

What a lot of people forget about that team is that they were a counter-attacking team, rather than the possession based game they switched to as Wenger's philosophy changed and Fabregas became the main player in the team.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thebronze14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2020 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by Zinedine Kilbane 110 Zinedine Kilbane 110 wrote:

Originally posted by Devrozex Devrozex wrote:

That Arsenal side drew 12 games in the PL that season. So far Liverpool have only drawn once!
 
There's a fair bit to go but at the moment I would say the current Liverpool side are considerably better.

Football moves on so quickly.

The Man U team in 94 won 2 leagues and the double.
But the team in 99 was way better than them. 
The Man U team in 08 was even better. 

The Man City team recently and the Liverpool team now are way ahead of the 08 Man U team. 

You can’t really compare team from different decades.


Ehhh you just have
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mulvanystrasse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2020 at 1:42am
A team that were defeated at the quarter final stage of the champions league are called the invincibles?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Huntacha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2020 at 10:44am
Originally posted by Mulvanystrasse Mulvanystrasse wrote:

A team that were defeated at the quarter final stage of the champions league are called the invincibles?


I know. It's as ludicrous as that Preston team in the late 1880's who had the same nickname.

Sure they didn't even play in the Champions League!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zinedine Kilbane 110 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2020 at 11:40am
Best individual season in the EPL is Man U 99 - no arguments there.

Where would you put Arsenals invincible’s in 04 on the list?

Above or below ...

Man City domestic treble 19
Man U league and Champions league double 08
Man City 100 pts plus league cup
Chelsea 95 pts plus league cup
Liverpool’s treble 01


For me it’s No.3 

1. Man U 99
2. Man U 08
3. Arsenal 04
4. Man City’s domestic treble 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mulvanystrasse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2020 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

Originally posted by Mulvanystrasse Mulvanystrasse wrote:

A team that were defeated at the quarter final stage of the champions league are called the invincibles?


I know. It's as ludicrous as that Preston team in the late 1880's who had the same nickname.

Sure they didn't even play in the Champions League!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OnTheOneRoad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2020 at 3:52pm
Southampton, in the relegation zone five weeks ago and having lost 9 (nine) nil earlier this season are now three points off fifth. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Moleman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2020 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by OnTheOneRoad OnTheOneRoad wrote:

Southampton, in the relegation zone five weeks ago and having lost 9 (nine) nil earlier this season are now three points off fifth. 

It will be an almighty scrap between 5th to 10th later in the season but it wouldn't surprise me to see them finishing 5th yet and not being far off 4th as Chelsea are so inconsistent. They did the right thing sticking by Hassenhuttl when things were bad earlier in the season and they are getting the rewards for that now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OnTheOneRoad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2020 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Originally posted by OnTheOneRoad OnTheOneRoad wrote:

Southampton, in the relegation zone five weeks ago and having lost 9 (nine) nil earlier this season are now three points off fifth. 

It will be an almighty scrap between 5th to 10th later in the season but it wouldn't surprise me to see them finishing 5th yet and not being far off 4th as Chelsea are so inconsistent. They did the right thing sticking by Hassenhuttl when things were bad earlier in the season and they are getting the rewards for that now.

In fairness , i do rate Hasenhuttl quite a bit and am glad he is beginning to succeed. The Premier League has always had a bit of a fetish about a foreign manager getting found out, particularly one vocal about ideas. I was looking at the team they sent out last night and there are a lot of good players in it. In fact the only place i thought it fell short was with the two lads up front LOL


Edited by OnTheOneRoad - 22 Jan 2020 at 5:44pm
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