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SuperDave84 View Drop Down
Robbie Keane
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ooh Thomas, how could you do this to me!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2018 at 2:38pm
The one thing that concerns me is that there is an international remedy available for this.

The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons has the duty to enforce the Chemical Weapons Convention. The UK have sent a sample there; let's see what happens. They're the ones to determine if there has been a breach of the Convention.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2018 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

The one thing that concerns me is that there is an international remedy available for this.

The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons has the duty to enforce the Chemical Weapons Convention. The UK have sent a sample there; let's see what happens. They're the ones to determine if there has been a breach of the Convention.

Not true actually. 
Novichok isn't actually on the list of banned substances. They can confirm the identity of the substance, but they cant confirm any wrongdoing because it's not on the list!


Edited by coyne - 16 Mar 2018 at 2:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2018 at 3:05pm
There's a saver provision, to cover chemicals such as that used here, though.

It doesn't need to be on the list if it is "[a]ny chemical which through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm to humans or animals. This includes all such chemicals, regardless of their origin or of their method of production, and regardless of whether they are produced in facilities, in munitions or elsewhere".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2018 at 6:53pm
Nikolai Glushkov appears to have been assassinated in London also.

Was found hanged in his house but autopsy's have found he was choked, which means he was murdered and then hanged to look as if it was a suicide.

Vocal critic of Putin and once testified in court against Roman Abromovich - Who is a close friend of Putin. Speaks volumes.

No direct link to Salisbury attacks but having Russian hitmen going berserk in your capital is unlikely to impress May.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2018 at 7:15pm
Awful ending to somebody's life. RIP.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2018 at 11:35pm
Glushkov is merely the latest in a long line of associates of Boris Berezovsky who have been murdered by the Russians in England.

This is a great article which details the circumstances of a load of such "mysterious" deaths.


As it's very long (18,000 words) I'll throw up a few bullet points. 

After Putin came to power in 2000, a load of oligarchs and their associates fled to England, mostly London. 

They had to launder all their dodgy money which involved a lot of financial jiggery pokery. 

Boris Berezovsky was the most prominent of these oligarchs. He was very anti-Putin. 

If you cross Putin, a death sentence hangs above you.

After September 11, 2001, the Brits devoted pretty much their entire counter-terrorism budget to stopping Islamists and their eye was never on the ball as regards the Russians. 

Russia started bumping off associates of Berezovsky from at least as early as 2004. 

They used a range of methods. Their speciality was the use of a range of a chemicals which could make it look like the person they killed had had a heart attack. Staging "suicide" was another method. Then there were the high profile "send a message" poisonings such as Litvinenko and the Skripal case.

The Brits were petrified of the Russians, and bar the Litivinenko case which was a major news story,  they didn't want to scratch below the surface as regards these mysterious deaths. Thus the Russians knew they could continue killing with impunity.

The main focus on the article is the case of Scot Young, a Scottish "fixer" for Berezovsky who lost his fortune in a failed Moscow property deal in 2006. 

He ended up dying as a result of a "suicide" in 2014, a suicide which has all the hallmarks of murder.

Berezovsky himself met a similar fate in 2013.

---------- 

Timothy Snyder who is the Professor of History at Yale University has another long article about Putin in the Guardian (5,000 words). It's pretty dense and verbose so may not be to everybody's taste, but sort of explains explains the reasoning of Putin's despotism.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/16/vladimir-putin-russia-politics-of-eternity-timothy-snyder

The bit about inventing homosexuality as an enemy is hilarious. 

On 6 December 2011, the day after the first protest in Moscow, the president of the Russian Federation, then still Dmitry Medvedev, retweeted a message to the effect that a leading protester was a “stupid, cocksucking sheep”. Putin, still prime minister but about to become president again, said on Russian TV that the white ribbons worn by protesters made him think of condoms. Then he compared protesters to monkeys and did a monkey imitation. Visiting Germany, Putin told a surprised Angela Merkel that the Russian opposition was “sexually deformed”. Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov began to claim that the Russian government had to take a stand against homosexuality to defend the innocence of Russian society.

A confidant of Putin, Vladimir Yakunin, developed the sheep image into a theory of geopolitics. In Yakunin’s opinion, published in a long article in November 2012, Russia was eternally confronted with a conspiracy of enemies, which has controlled the course of history since time began. This global group had released homosexual propaganda around the world in order to reduce birth rates in Russia and thereby preserve the power of the west. The spread of gay rights was a deliberate policy intended to turn Russians into a “herd” easily manipulable by the global masters of capitalism.

In September 2013, a Russian diplomat repeated this argument at a conference on human rights in China. Gay rights were nothing more than the chosen weapon of a global neoliberal conspiracy, meant to prepare virtuous, traditional societies such as Russia and China for exploitation. President Putin took the next step at his personal global summit at Valdai a few days later, comparing same-sex partnerships to Satanism. He associated gay rights with a western model that “opens a direct path to degradation and primitivism, resulting in a profound demographic and moral crisis.” The Russian parliament had by then passed a law “for the purpose of protecting children from information advocating for a denial of traditional family values”.

Human sexuality is an inexhaustible raw material for the manufacture of anxiety. The attempt to place heterosexuality within Russia and homosexuality beyond was factually ludicrous, but the facts were beside the point. The purpose of the anti-gay campaign was to transform demands for democracy into a nebulous threat to Russian innocence: voting = west = sodomy. Russia had to be innocent, and all problems had to be the responsibility of others.

The campaign did not depend on a factual demonstration of the heterosexuality of the Russian elite. In the previous four years, when Putin had been prime minister, his propaganda master Vladislav Surkov had placed him in a series of fur-and-feathers photo shoots. Putin and Medvedev’s attempt to present themselves as manly friends by posing in matching whites after badminton matches was similarly unconvincing. Putin divorced his wife just as his anti-gay campaign began, leaving the champion of family values without a traditional family. In 2017, it became a criminal offence to portray Putin as a gay clown. An attentive female scholar summarised his position: “Putin’s kisses are reserved for children and animals.”



Edited by sid waddell - 16 Mar 2018 at 11:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2018 at 12:19am
Arsenal playing a Moscow side couldn't be at a worse time politically LOL

Not is it the only recent tensions, it's also the fact the last time they played, at Arsenal's ground, was the very last time Litvenenko was seen alive, and the bloke next to him was next seen shaking hands with Putin days later.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2018 at 1:03am
A very interesting read, Sid.

I've will admit that I have been amazed by the level of people who seem to be avoiding accepting the "party line" on this one, and it's ranging from demanding iron clad proof, all the way to Russian apologism. The alternatives are flimsy, the sources for the questions are not expert, and it is effectively absolving Russia of responsibility. It is breathtaking to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2018 at 10:40am
Putin's response to the incident in Salisbury is bizarre. The denial of possession of such materials flies in the face of what is generally known.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 3:28pm
Russia being really childish over this now, the new approach seems to be at the fans intending to go over there in the summer. 
They've just kicked out the FA's Safety Officer for the tournament and barred him from entering again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

Russia being really childish over this now, the new approach seems to be at the fans intending to go over there in the summer. 
They've just kicked out the FA's Safety Officer for the tournament and barred him from entering again.


It's to be expected. The chances of Russia acting in a manner consistent with good diplomacy was never on the cards.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Denis Irwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2018 at 6:44pm
Owen Smith sacked by Corbyn after calling for a 2nd EU referendum
Eamonn Dunphy:"I'll tell you who wrote it, Rod Liddle, he's the guy who ran away and left his wife for a young one".

Bill O'Herlihy: Ah ye can't be saying that now Eamonn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2018 at 7:00pm
The term 'don't bite the hand what feeds you' springs to mind.

Jeremy gave him a frontbench job although he contested him for Leadership and he turns around stabs him in the back.

Now he's back to irrelevancy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyD87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2018 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

The term 'don't bite the hand that feeds you' springs to mind.

Jeremy gave him a frontbench job although he contested him for Leadership and he turns around stabs him in the back.

Now he's back to irrelevancy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Denis Irwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2018 at 7:04pm
Labour can hardly call themselves anti Brexit now
Eamonn Dunphy:"I'll tell you who wrote it, Rod Liddle, he's the guy who ran away and left his wife for a young one".

Bill O'Herlihy: Ah ye can't be saying that now Eamonn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2018 at 7:08pm
Originally posted by Denis Irwin Denis Irwin wrote:

Labour can hardly call themselves anti Brexit now

They haven't been since JC re-shifted their position last election as the softer Brexit party 

Labour as the Brexit with Single market, Customs Union access
Tories as the Hard Brexit party
Lib Dems Remain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2018 at 7:11pm
Corbyn has really struggled for any consistency with Brexit. That extends all the way back to his awful campaign in 2016 when people rightly questioned his commitment to the cause. 

Also, the "soft Brexit" approach doesn't really exist, and it is another half-measure in Corbyn's compendium of half measures in relation to foreign policy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2018 at 7:14pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Corbyn has really struggled for any consistency with Brexit. 

You're right about that. He's always been really late to officially clarify position on things, even if the answer has been obvious for a while now.

But Owen needed to go, a wardrobe Remainer on the frontbench coming out is no good for the party.
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