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Roy Keane
Roy Keane

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 10:51pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

In the context of what you said, ‘worked for this leveraged pound’ is jarring, to me anyway. If anything, the context of talking about London, a city with little or no social fabric and where very few people earning big money do anything to benefit society, I would say it is more jarring. That’s a different argument again though.

It may not have meant to be jarring, it may highlight how opposite we are on this, but it is jarring.

You’ve made assumptions there and ones I cant agree with. We are definitely opposite on this.
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Robbie Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 10:53pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

In the context of what you said, ‘worked for this leveraged pound’ is jarring, to me anyway. If anything, the context of talking about London, a city with little or no social fabric and where very few people earning big money do anything to benefit society, I would say it is more jarring. That’s a different argument again though.

It may not have meant to be jarring, it may highlight how opposite we are on this, but it is jarring.

You’ve made assumptions there and ones I cant agree with. We are definitely opposite on this.
And deliberately so, but that doesn’t change what was clearly implied by ‘worked for this leveraged pound’. 

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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 10:55pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

In the context of what you said, ‘worked for this leveraged pound’ is jarring, to me anyway. If anything, the context of talking about London, a city with little or no social fabric and where very few people earning big money do anything to benefit society, I would say it is more jarring. That’s a different argument again though.

It may not have meant to be jarring, it may highlight how opposite we are on this, but it is jarring.

You’ve made assumptions there and ones I cant agree with. We are definitely opposite on this.
And deliberately so, but that doesn’t change what was clearly implied by ‘worked for this leveraged pound’. 


No, you’re just plain wrong and building a strawman.
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Robbie Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 10:58pm
Why am I wrong? Why haven’t you tried to explain it then? Surely going on about strawman is, in itself, a strawman! I have no interest in strawman at all! If I have taken you up wrong I will apologise, but the implications seem clear to me.
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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 11:02pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Why am I wrong? Why haven’t you tried to explain it then? Surely going on about strawman is, in itself, a strawman! I have no interest in strawman at all! If I have taken you up wrong I will apologise, but the implications seem clear to me.

Just apologise. It’s obvious that I was speaking about the amount of income that is effectively already spent as a result of costs and expenses. That in no way shape or form suggesting other people or other professions who earn less than that don’t “work to live” or that they don’t earn a leveraged pound. 

The implications are not “clear”. It’s a total strawman.
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Robbie Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 11:04pm
They are crystal. You can call it a f**king snowman for all I care. I don’t apologise to Tories, I don’t believe in a kinder, gentler politics! 
G’luck.
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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 11:06pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

They are crystal. You can call it a f**king snowman for all I care. I don’t apologise to Tories, I don’t believe in a kinder, gentler politics! 
G’luck.

I’m not a Tory.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 11:17pm
And I’m not French, but I do know some of the language.
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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 11:20pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

And I’m not French, but I do know some of the language.

Good for you.
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Robbie Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 11:24pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

And I’m not French, but I do know some of the language.

Good for you.
THanks, Tory! Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 11:37pm
Labour haven’t been in power for nearly fifty years and even Bliar’s ****s did a superior job with the economy then the bungling mess the Tories have made of it.
Nobody is just throwing money at the NHS, a lot of what you are complaining about is dealt with in the manifesto. Johnson will sell it off, providing a worse service that will cost everyone a lot more, including lives.

Nobody is going ‘after’ anyone. It is about bringing people together for a fairer society, if you are too selfish for that then there’s little else to say.
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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 11:44pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

And I’m not French, but I do know some of the language.

Good for you.
THanks, Tory! Big smile

Im not a Tory, and have no interest in voting for them.

But that doesn’t mean I have to like everything that Corbyn or Labour says, and it doesn’t mean I can’t criticise it. 



Edited by Het-field - 21 Nov 2019 at 11:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 11:48pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

And I’m not French, but I do know some of the language.

Good for you.
THanks, Tory! Big smile

Im not a Tory, and have no interest in voting for them.

But that doesn’t mean I have to like everything that Corbyn or Labour says, and it doesn’t mean I can’t criticise it. 

Of course you don’t, you don’t live in Britain! And where did I say you have to like Corbyn? You have used Tory lingo, not for the first time, and then denied it. You can be a Tory if you want, at least Topper owns it.

By the way Topper, was that you on BBC Question Time? 
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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 11:59pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

And I’m not French, but I do know some of the language.

Good for you.
THanks, Tory! Big smile

Im not a Tory, and have no interest in voting for them.

But that doesn’t mean I have to like everything that Corbyn or Labour says, and it doesn’t mean I can’t criticise it. 

Of course you don’t, you don’t live in Britain! And where did I say you have to like Corbyn? You have used Tory lingo, not for the first time, and then denied it. You can be a Tory if you want, at least Topper owns it.

By the way Topper, was that you on BBC Question Time? 

More assumptions.

“Tory Lingo”. I can’t roll my eyes far enough back at that one.

This is boring.


Edited by Het-field - 22 Nov 2019 at 12:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2019 at 12:42am
Originally posted by Guppy Guppy wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Labour haven’t been in power for nearly fifty years and even Bliar’s ****s did a superior job with the economy then the bungling mess the Tories have made of it.
Nobody is just throwing money at the NHS, a lot of what you are complaining about is dealt with in the manifesto. Johnson will sell it off, providing a worse service that will cost everyone a lot more, including lives.

Nobody is going ‘after’ anyone. It is about bringing people together for a fairer society, if you are too selfish for that then there’s little else to say.

Blair done a great job.. led us into a wonderful recession. Johnson won’t sell the NHS off, he can’t. It’s far too political, Thatcher would of done it if she thought it was possible never mind Johnson. The NHS will always do the same thing regardless of how much money goes into it, it will save your life if you’ve a heart attack. If you’ve a lingering pain in your arm, you’ll be waiting years. It’s been that way for many many years, with an ageing population it’s just adding and adding, it won’t improve regardless of any manifesto. That’s the reality. 

You can’t have a perfect society, and a communist style one simply doesn’t work. It pays to be on the DLA and play the system in the UK, your house, council tax all your main bills will be taken care of by the tax payers. The Mercedes Á Class is on the mobility scheme... all this needs addressed. Then maybe we can get onto taxation and a fair society.
Firstly, it’s ‘have’ not ‘of’. You do not ‘of’ eggs for breakfast.

Secondly, away from trying to wind you up or be deliberately be a **** because of what I consider to be appalling views, I do try and empathise with your position. I understand, and I am sorry if I inferred this wrong, that you seemed to have a sheltered and privileged upbringing. I think it is also fair to say you struggle with self-awareness, ( I’m aware when I’m being a ****, so smart arses can pipe down!) or that’s certainly how you’ve come across, you may well be in character! I feel you lack a little bit of empathy yourself for those that haven’t shared your good fortune, but that is understandable, but the last paragraph is deliberate twaddle straight from the pages of the Daily Mail. Inexcusable.

Benefit fraud is massively, massively overplayed in Britain and very deliberately so. Much, much more money goes unclaimed by people who aren’t aware of what benefits they are entitled to, including those a million pensioners are entitled to,  many of whom are below the poverty line as a result It is estimated that ten billion pounds worth goes unclaimed. An estimated three and half billion is overpaid, around half that believed to be fraudulent. 
This is the same stick that is used to beat migrants with and play them off against the most vulnerable in society. It’s a tale as old as time. Just for context, thirty-four billion goes uncollected in tax every year. Would you be surprised to learn that many more people are employed chasing benefit cheats than tax dodgers?

I am also no fan of Blair, he should have stood trial in my view! Not just for the deaths of innocent civilians and British soldiers in Iraq, but for hijacking the Labour Party for his own vanity project, but he was hardly responsible for the recession. That lay with the bankers and the thirty years of Thatcherism giving the City carte blanche. Johnson’s solution, that’s the man who boasted that nobody done more for those bankers after the crash than him, is to give them even freer reign.  The fact this is being treated as sanity shows where we are truly at. 

As for the NHS being always the same, that’s what they want you to think. Thatcher could never have sold it off, but she did begin the process that is allowing to slowly sold off. Forty years of deliberate mismanagement and underfunding means it is no longer as sacrosanct as it once was in the British psyche. If you told people living in Thatcher’s Britain that in a generation NHS staff would be paying for parking they would have laughed. It has been slow and deliberate, but it had to be. Approximately  a quarter of NHS budget was spent on the private sector. GP surgeries are often private partnerships. It isn’t the NHS that Bevan created now, but it can be again.
As I have constantly said, the NHS was built after a war, when Britain was broke and had a population of seriously ill people. More houses were built then too, and the economy grew for twenty years as a result. In fact, people were, pound for pound, better off during the three day working week in 1974 then they are now, by nearly all metrics! 

This idea that this manifesto is communist is rubbish. I’m a communist, anarcho-syndicalist to  be exact, but those are unrealistic aims to achieve in my lifetime. This is real and tangible democratic socialism, the type that is working in other countries and has worked in Britain in the past. It needed rejigging for the 21st century, consumer capitalism is consuming the planet, but it is the best way to remember those who died in world wars. It is far more patriotic to care for all your citizens and residents equally than repeate the same mistakes. It isn’t about ‘going after’ people, it is about creating a better society for all of us living in it. There is very little society or community in much of Britain now, this is about getting that back. It is genuinely about hope.





Edited by pre Madonna - 22 Nov 2019 at 1:01am
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Robbie Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2019 at 12:43am
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

And I’m not French, but I do know some of the language.

Good for you.
THanks, Tory! Big smile

Im not a Tory, and have no interest in voting for them.

But that doesn’t mean I have to like everything that Corbyn or Labour says, and it doesn’t mean I can’t criticise it. 

Of course you don’t, you don’t live in Britain! And where did I say you have to like Corbyn? You have used Tory lingo, not for the first time, and then denied it. You can be a Tory if you want, at least Topper owns it.

By the way Topper, was that you on BBC Question Time? 

More assumptions.

“Tory Lingo”. I can’t roll my eyes far enough back at that one.

This is boring.
Have a go, I would like them to go right back round. Ironically, I think you may then see better.
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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2019 at 1:05am
What Labour is proposing is moderate social democracy - a level of state investment slightly above the European average

That's radical in British terms because Britain is the third lowest in Europe for state investment

But by European standards it's perfectly normal

I don't want my politicians to tell me what can't be done

I want politicians to tell me that they have big ideas and big plans for the betterment of society

The sort of stuff that is in Labour's manifesto should only be a start

Societes cannot afford to not think big - we are at a vital point for human existence

The current economic trajectories, especially in Anglo-Saxon type economies, are destroying societies and driving wealth increasingly and inexorably into into the hands of the few

It isn't just creating inequality - it's creating kleptocracies

And they are destroying the planet

Only Labour meets this challenge head on

It's a no-brainer, for anybody who has a vote in this election and any shred of human decency and empathy, a Labour government is a must









Edited by sid waddell - 22 Nov 2019 at 1:05am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaddyDaCulchie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2019 at 2:26am
Borrowing and national debt have increased during Tories austerity since last labour government but Tories still blame labour. Living in Manchester/stockport 4 years, it has surprised me how many Irish vote Tory.....simple reason cos a lot self employed think less taxes under Tories. In groundwork and construction we are all technically self employed paying 20% Cis tax. Most no nothing about politics.....just labour = more tax. Tories less. Dont realise that just works for the rich.
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