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Playing for a national team, and by extension nationality, will mean different things to different people. No two people will see it exactly,  regardless of where they are born. Was it Alan Lee, born in Galway, who said he couldn't care about playing for Ireland?
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Originally posted by MC Hammered MC Hammered wrote:


TJ you mad man. If McCarthy wanted out of playing for us, he could retire and cite his injury record and no one would blame him. He took an outrageous amount of abuse in Scotland for declaring for us. He had no issues with his shyness when turning down the country of his birth. 

Mod edit: behave yourself Brendan. 


Edited by Sham157 - 05 Sep 2020 at 7:09pm
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Originally posted by MC Hammered MC Hammered wrote:


TJ you mad man. If McCarthy wanted out of playing for us, he could retire and cite his injury record and no one would blame him. He took an outrageous amount of abuse in Scotland for declaring for us. He had no issues with his shyness when turning down the country of his birth. 


Why didn't Stephen Ireland officially retire from international football when he clearly had no interest in playing for us under 3 different managers?

If you recall his granded pressurised him into playing for Ireland.  Scotland didn't even have him on their radar at the time if I recall when he was at Hamilton and I think EIRE was his only option at that time. I just think he was young and shy and sort of went along with his grandads wishes but that the decision to play for us wasn't really his and from his heart.  He is clearly Scottish and I'm sure he sees himself as Scottish.  He's 3rd generation Irish.  He's not going to see himself as Irish just as Grealish or Rice didn't.  I'm sure he has some fondness for the country because his grandad was from here.  But I would say that's it.
He had the option of switching to Scotland after playing for us in friendlies and had a discussion with his family before finally choosing us.    At the time he was pulling out of our squad left, right and centre hedging his bets.  I imagine his decision to stick with us feeling he had come too far along the Irish road to turn back now and also he probably had a better chance of playing in finals with EIRE.








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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Playing for a national team, and by extension nationality, will mean different things to different people. No two people will see it exactly,  regardless of where they are born. Was it Alan Lee, born in Galway, who said he couldn't care about playing for Ireland?


100%.  Stephen Ireland clearly couldn't give a f**k.

Ray Houghton's dad was Irish but Ray and his brothers were huge Scotland fans growing up and Ray said he wanted to play for Scotland but they never picked him when he was at Oxford.  Jack gave him the chance to play international football, Ray asked for some time to think about it because he wanted to play for Scotland but then Jack demanded an answer and so he picked us.  He never regretted it but that doesn't mean he is Irish or even sees himself as Irish.
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I used to drink in Ray's brother's local. It's a dodgy Celtic pub near Euston in London. John is a lunatic, especially when on the booze, but he definitely identifies as Irish. I met Ray in there once and he was bang on. He said, when I drunkenly asked him, that he always considered himself Irish and Scottish, but was Irish first now after all it had given him.

It's a very complex thing, largely because it is entirely made up and sold to each of us. It depends how much you want to buy into it.
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I used to drink in Ray's brother's local. It's a dodgy Celtic pub near Euston in London. John is a lunatic, especially when on the booze, but he definitely identifies as Irish. I met Ray in there once and he was bang on. He said, when I drunkenly asked him, that he always considered himself Irish and Scottish, but was Irish first now after all it had given him.

It's a very complex thing, largely because it is entirely made up and sold to each of us. It depends how much you want to buy into it.


Ray is on record as saying he and his brothers were big Scotland fans.  I'm sure his brother obviously changed allegiances somewhat once Ray was playing for us. 

I mean Cissie Charlton was a big England fan all her life with her family and friends representing England.and she said that she wanted Ireland to beat England at Euro 88.

Dalglish was a Rangers supporter but would probably be a Celtic supporter now (I presume!)


Edited by Trap junior - 05 Sep 2020 at 7:20pm
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Possibly. It just shows the fluidity of it. It amuses me when people expext other people to share their passion in their nationality. Quite a bit of it earlier in this thread!
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Possibly. It just shows the fluidity of it. It amuses me when people expext other people to share their passion in their nationality. Quite a bit of it earlier in this thread!


I'm cetainly not.  I don't expect James McCarthy to have the proclamation on the wall of his house at home or shed a tear every time the anthem is played or even being an EIRE supporter as a kid.  What I do expect is people to turn up in good faith and play their best and have ultimate commitment to the cause.  Andy Townsend for example.  Its his wishy washy desire to really be here that I have an issue with.  A player who wants to give his all will turn up even carrying niggly injuries to play for us.  Paul McGrath played against Italy with a virus and couldnt move his arm.  How many games did he play with dodgy knees or having cortisone shots during a game?
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I certainly wasn't accusing you either! I actually disagree with you on McCarthy, I think the lad is just cursed with injury to the point that he  nearly expects to get injured, but it is no different to the way I feel about Arter. Although in the latter's case I think he is hanging around because we can boost his career prospects. I don't think McCarthy needs that at all. 
I also don't think either of them are very good, but that's a whole other problem!

There's a lot of truth to what you're saying. It is logical. I think some of the loyalty from lads like Townsend in Jack's era was to the team and Jack himself more than Ireland. Some lads born and raised here, like Doherty, for example, never strike me as being overly enthusiastic about playing for us in the way lads like Walters or McClean are. Not that it matters really, once they perform. 

My views on Doherty are just a hunch, before someone goes off on a tangent. I don't think he isn't committed, I just don't think he is a fan in a shirt. I would say very few of England or Wales players, for example, would be big fans either. Irish people tend to get more upset about it though!
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I certainly wasn't accusing you either! I actually disagree with you on McCarthy, I think the lad is just cursed with injury to the point that he  nearly expects to get injured, but it is no different to the way I feel about Arter. Although in the latter's case I think he is hanging around because we can boost his career prospects. I don't think McCarthy needs that at all. 
I also don't think either of them are very good, but that's a whole other problem!

There's a lot of truth to what you're saying. It is logical. I think some of the loyalty from lads like Townsend in Jack's era was to the team and Jack himself more than Ireland. Some lads born and raised here, like Doherty, for example, never strike me as being overly enthusiastic about playing for us in the way lads like Walters or McClean are. Not that it matters really, once they perform. 

My views on Doherty are just a hunch, before someone goes off on a tangent. I don't think he isn't committed, I just don't think he is a fan in a shirt. I would say very few of England or Wales players, for example, would be big fans either. Irish people tend to get more upset about it though!



I don't know why lads get angry questioning players motives.  It was the same with Grealish and Rice before they turned.  We were told they were 100% committed and all this evedice was there to show they had always wanted to play for EIRE and playing for England had never been in their plans.  Jack played Gaelic! He saw himself as Irish not English it was said.  No Englishman would be playing gaelic.  Rice it was said was from a staunch Irish background. His dad sang rebel songs.  Rice even tweeted Republican tweets.  There was no fear of him switching we were told.

Why do people think that every Irish player who plays for us always dreamt of playing for us and that they bleed green blood and its sacrilege to think otherwise.  Fact is footballers are contractors and will go wherever the most money is and their principles and childhood teams have little bearing on their career choices.  Doherty is an Arsenal fan and signed for spurs.  Dalglish was a Rangers man signed for Celtic.  Mo Johnston was  Celtic supporting, ex Celtic player Cathoilc who signed for Rangers.  All for the cash baby.
Gerrard was an Everton fan as was Carragher.  They had no qualms about lining out for the enemy.  As I said players go where the cash and glory are for the most part.  They are career CV builders like anyone in any industry.  They are cold hearted career men when it boils down to it.
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Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Ciaran Clark playing at all age groups at under age and captaining them also would be a cert to play for the senior side too. And he was quick to switch allegiance to Ireland whilst playing for Villa in the EPL.

I think every person is different.

No doubt there is a good few who use it to advance their own careers.


Clark never played for England at U21 level. That's a common misconception.
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Trap if that's the case why are you singling out McCarthy so 
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Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I certainly wasn't accusing you either! I actually disagree with you on McCarthy, I think the lad is just cursed with injury to the point that he  nearly expects to get injured, but it is no different to the way I feel about Arter. Although in the latter's case I think he is hanging around because we can boost his career prospects. I don't think McCarthy needs that at all. 
I also don't think either of them are very good, but that's a whole other problem!

There's a lot of truth to what you're saying. It is logical. I think some of the loyalty from lads like Townsend in Jack's era was to the team and Jack himself more than Ireland. Some lads born and raised here, like Doherty, for example, never strike me as being overly enthusiastic about playing for us in the way lads like Walters or McClean are. Not that it matters really, once they perform. 

My views on Doherty are just a hunch, before someone goes off on a tangent. I don't think he isn't committed, I just don't think he is a fan in a shirt. I would say very few of England or Wales players, for example, would be big fans either. Irish people tend to get more upset about it though!



I don't know why lads get angry questioning players motives.  It was the same with Grealish and Rice before they turned.  We were told they were 100% committed and all this evedice was there to show they had always wanted to play for EIRE and playing for England had never been in their plans.  Jack played Gaelic! He saw himself as Irish not English it was said.  No Englishman would be playing gaelic.  Rice it was said was from a staunch Irish background. His dad sang rebel songs.  Rice even tweeted Republican tweets.  There was no fear of him switching we were told.

Why do people think that every Irish player who plays for us always dreamt of playing for us and that they bleed green blood and its sacrilege to think otherwise.  Fact is footballers are contractors and will go wherever the most money is and their principles and childhood teams have little bearing on their career choices.  Doherty is an Arsenal fan and signed for spurs.  Dalglish was a Rangers man signed for Celtic.  Mo Johnston was  Celtic supporting, ex Celtic player Cathoilc who signed for Rangers.  All for the cash baby.
Gerrard was an Everton fan as was Carragher.  They had no qualms about lining out for the enemy.  As I said players go where the cash and glory are for the most part.  They are career CV builders like anyone in any industry.  They are cold hearted career men when it boils down to it.


Any Irishman esp born and bred in Ireland should and does i think dream to play  for Ireland. That should be a given.
 


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Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Trap if that's the case why are you singling out McCarthy so 


I singled out him and Arter because they are serial offenders.  McCarthy has been pulling out of squads with very dubious 'injuries' since he was 18! I'm talking years before his broken leg.  Roy Keane faked injuries and his commitment was wishy washy especially from 1995-1997.  How many times did he pull out for micky mouse reasons only to play for Utd a couple days later? Stephen Ireland I give plenty of flak too. 

I'm certainly not unfairly picking on him or singling him out.  He isn't the first and won't be the last to have a half arsed attitude.
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But you said they are all careerist who put themselves first if that's the case what is wrong with what arter or mccarthy has done as that is what you expect them to do surely.  

It seems your logic is mixed.  You have a standard that you are judging them on but then again you don't expect any player to be any different.   
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What I expect of James McCarthy is when named in squads and turn up with no fuss.  No 'James is doubtful crap' because he has an achy breaky heart or a boil on his kneecap or some crap excuse.  Turn up, do a job and go back to his club.  That bad haematoma excuse last week was pathetic.  Whether its from him or his club. 
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Originally posted by doherty doherty wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I certainly wasn't accusing you either! I actually disagree with you on McCarthy, I think the lad is just cursed with injury to the point that he  nearly expects to get injured, but it is no different to the way I feel about Arter. Although in the latter's case I think he is hanging around because we can boost his career prospects. I don't think McCarthy needs that at all. 
I also don't think either of them are very good, but that's a whole other problem!

There's a lot of truth to what you're saying. It is logical. I think some of the loyalty from lads like Townsend in Jack's era was to the team and Jack himself more than Ireland. Some lads born and raised here, like Doherty, for example, never strike me as being overly enthusiastic about playing for us in the way lads like Walters or McClean are. Not that it matters really, once they perform. 

My views on Doherty are just a hunch, before someone goes off on a tangent. I don't think he isn't committed, I just don't think he is a fan in a shirt. I would say very few of England or Wales players, for example, would be big fans either. Irish people tend to get more upset about it though!



I don't know why lads get angry questioning players motives.  It was the same with Grealish and Rice before they turned.  We were told they were 100% committed and all this evedice was there to show they had always wanted to play for EIRE and playing for England had never been in their plans.  Jack played Gaelic! He saw himself as Irish not English it was said.  No Englishman would be playing gaelic.  Rice it was said was from a staunch Irish background. His dad sang rebel songs.  Rice even tweeted Republican tweets.  There was no fear of him switching we were told.

Why do people think that every Irish player who plays for us always dreamt of playing for us and that they bleed green blood and its sacrilege to think otherwise.  Fact is footballers are contractors and will go wherever the most money is and their principles and childhood teams have little bearing on their career choices.  Doherty is an Arsenal fan and signed for spurs.  Dalglish was a Rangers man signed for Celtic.  Mo Johnston was  Celtic supporting, ex Celtic player Cathoilc who signed for Rangers.  All for the cash baby.
Gerrard was an Everton fan as was Carragher.  They had no qualms about lining out for the enemy.  As I said players go where the cash and glory are for the most part.  They are career CV builders like anyone in any industry.  They are cold hearted career men when it boils down to it.


Any Irishman esp born and bred in Ireland should and does i think dream to play  for Ireland. That should be a given.
 


Nonsense. Again, you are projecting your opinions and beliefs on to everybody else. 
I don't think anybody should be told how to feel, but why should a lad who was born in Ireland to parents from elsewhere, and very likely to be regularly reminded of that fact, dream of playing for Ireland?
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