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Jack Charlton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Originally posted by Banjaxed Banjaxed wrote:

Nearly every squad that Hoolahan was a part of he would have been considered the most technically gifted, and also the one with the best "footballing brains"... yet he wasn't a guaranteed starter.

So drawing any conclusions on Crowley/Byrne's ability based on who they play for, past failings, when they get dropped, etc, just seems redundant.

It will always come down to the manager and their personal preference based on how they want to play, but at the end of the day, not playing your most technically gifted player doesn't change the fact that they are STILL your most technically gifted player. 

Players like Byrne, hoolahan, crowley and kilkenny need to play in teams where possession of the football is required because that's where they excel. 

If you only have the ball for 30-35% of the game these players get labelled defensive liabilities. 

And if you never start them then you have no chance of keeping possession for more than 30% of the time... It astounds me how some people are blind to that link; we play guys who we know can't dominate possession, and then use that as confirmatory evidence for not starting guys who conceivably can keep possession. Vicious cycle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fruice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 2:29pm
Ya but the guys we are currently speaking about as technically good are Crowley who is at a struggling Championship side and Byrne who is playing in the LOI after failing the make it abroad.
There is a reason they are where the are and until they can prove they are better than where they are at they won’t start for us it’s as simple as that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Banjaxed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

Ya but the guys we are currently speaking about as technically good are Crowley who is at a struggling Championship side and Byrne who is playing in the LOI after failing the make it abroad.
There is a reason they are where the are and until they can prove they are better than where they are at they won’t start for us it’s as simple as that.


Who on the 40 team panel is technically more gifted and Crowley or Byrne?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by Banjaxed Banjaxed wrote:

Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

Ya but the guys we are currently speaking about as technically good are Crowley who is at a struggling Championship side and Byrne who is playing in the LOI after failing the make it abroad.
There is a reason they are where the are and until they can prove they are better than where they are at they won’t start for us it’s as simple as that.


Who on the 40 team panel is technically more gifted and Crowley or Byrne?
The argument isn’t whether they are or aren’t the best technical players, it is about whether that technique would improve the team as a whole. Many remain sceptical of that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

There’s also question marks as to how much ability they have and how they use it. I always felt Hoolahan tried passes in needless times and dangerous areas, for example. I felt it was a massive flaw. Others might be able to pick the right pass at the right time and little more.
Football is about getting the balance right, if the player is going to weaken the sum total but is nicer to watch, managers won’t pick him. Should Crowley be as good as some are making out, and be eligible, he will become a mainstay. Unfortunately, I think people may be getting carried away, as is the tendency with any Irish or potentially Irish player that shows any promise at all.

Agree with question mark surrounding hoolahan forcing a pass that maybe isn't there, but then you look at some of the thing he did pull off and I think that's the risk we need to take. 

We can defend for 90 mins and offer nothing going forward or you can encourage the creative players to take more of a risk to win the game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

Ya but the guys we are currently speaking about as technically good are Crowley who is at a struggling Championship side and Byrne who is playing in the LOI after failing the make it abroad.
There is a reason they are where the are and until they can prove they are better than where they are at they won’t start for us it’s as simple as that.


Struggling??
We're decent enough..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fruice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 3:29pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

Ya but the guys we are currently speaking about as technically good are Crowley who is at a struggling Championship side and Byrne who is playing in the LOI after failing the make it abroad.
There is a reason they are where the are and until they can prove they are better than where they are at they won’t start for us it’s as simple as that.


Struggling??
Yes struggling their ambition is to be in the premier league they are closer to league one than the premiership.
Got a points deduction last season and sold their best player this summer.
That’s struggling to me.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fruice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Banjaxed Banjaxed wrote:

Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

Ya but the guys we are currently speaking about as technically good are Crowley who is at a struggling Championship side and Byrne who is playing in the LOI after failing the make it abroad.
There is a reason they are where the are and until they can prove they are better than where they are at they won’t start for us it’s as simple as that.


Who on the 40 team panel is technically more gifted and Crowley or Byrne?
The argument isn’t whether they are or aren’t the best technical players, it is about whether that technique would improve the team as a whole. Many remain sceptical of that.
That’s exactly where I’m coming from and to this point in time none of there club managers at the bigger clubs have been convinced by technical abilities either 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:


Struggling??
Yes struggling their ambition is to be in the premier league they are closer to league one than the premiership.
Got a points deduction last season and sold their best player this summer.
That’s struggling to me.

Not predicting they'll go down this season (though it wouldn't surprise me at all), but their present on-field prospects cannot be divorced from their financial situation, which is calamitous (understatement):
https://footballeconomyv2.blogspot.com/2019/01/huge-wage-bills-at-birmingham-city.html

In order to escape further FFP punishment etc, they have been forced to slash their bills this season, esp wage bills.

Which explains why they've sold their main (only?) goalscorer Adams to Soton, for instance, and their most creative player, Jota, to their most hated rivals Villa.

Which must also at least partly explain why they signed Crowley i.e. he was cheap, exactly as you might expect from someone with his CV.

Which is not to say he hasn't been unfairly overlooked to date, or isn't capable of being a late developer.

But as someone who's actually seen him play recently, when he was decent enough I suppose, I can't believe a team like ROI should be picking him in important games until he's had at least one consistent 35-game season at St. Andrews, if not two.

Certainly not while eg Alan Judge is fit and available, Lge One or no.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fruice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:


Struggling??
Yes struggling their ambition is to be in the premier league they are closer to league one than the premiership.
Got a points deduction last season and sold their best player this summer.
That’s struggling to me.

Not predicting they'll go down this season (though it wouldn't surprise me at all), but their present on-field prospects cannot be divorced from their financial situation, which is calamitous (understatement):

In order to escape further FFP punishment etc, they have been forced to slash their bills this season, esp wage bills.

Which explains why they've sold their main (only?) goalscorer Adams to Soton, for instance, and their most creative player, Jota, to their most hated rivals Villa.

Which must also at least partly explain why they signed Crowley i.e. he was cheap, exactly as you might expect from someone with his CV.

Which is not to say he hasn't been unfairly overlooked to date, or isn't capable of being a late developer.

But as someone who's actually seen him play recently, when he was decent enough I suppose, I can't believe a team like ROI should be picking him in important games until he's had at least one consistent 35-game season at St. Andrews, if not two.

Certainly not while eg Alan Judge is fit and available, Lge One or no.



So Terri would you say struggling???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kearney304 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Originally posted by Banjaxed Banjaxed wrote:

Nearly every squad that Hoolahan was a part of he would have been considered the most technically gifted, and also the one with the best "footballing brains"... yet he wasn't a guaranteed starter.

So drawing any conclusions on Crowley/Byrne's ability based on who they play for, past failings, when they get dropped, etc, just seems redundant.

It will always come down to the manager and their personal preference based on how they want to play, but at the end of the day, not playing your most technically gifted player doesn't change the fact that they are STILL your most technically gifted player. 

Players like Byrne, hoolahan, crowley and kilkenny need to play in teams where possession of the football is required because that's where they excel. 

If you only have the ball for 30-35% of the game these players get labelled defensive liabilities. 

And if you never start them then you have no chance of keeping possession for more than 30% of the time... It astounds me how some people are blind to that link; we play guys who we know can't dominate possession, and then use that as confirmatory evidence for not starting guys who conceivably can keep possession. Vicious cycle.
Don't usually agree with you but this is so fecking true 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:


Struggling??
Yes struggling their ambition is to be in the premier league they are closer to league one than the premiership.
Got a points deduction last season and sold their best player this summer.
That’s struggling to me.

Not predicting they'll go down this season (though it wouldn't surprise me at all), but their present on-field prospects cannot be divorced from their financial situation, which is calamitous (understatement):

In order to escape further FFP punishment etc, they have been forced to slash their bills this season, esp wage bills.

Which explains why they've sold their main (only?) goalscorer Adams to Soton, for instance, and their most creative player, Jota, to their most hated rivals Villa.

Which must also at least partly explain why they signed Crowley i.e. he was cheap, exactly as you might expect from someone with his CV.

Which is not to say he hasn't been unfairly overlooked to date, or isn't capable of being a late developer.

But as someone who's actually seen him play recently, when he was decent enough I suppose, I can't believe a team like ROI should be picking him in important games until he's had at least one consistent 35-game season at St. Andrews, if not two.

Certainly not while eg Alan Judge is fit and available, Lge One or no.



So Terri would you say struggling???
LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

So Terri would you say struggling???

I thought that was implicit.

Maybe you should let us know when you need someone to be explicit. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fruice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 5:06pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

So Terri would you say struggling???

I thought that was implicit.

Maybe you should let us know when you need someone to be explicit. Wink
Arra there is nothing like driving it home.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deise316 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 11:59pm
Originally posted by kearney304 kearney304 wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Originally posted by Banjaxed Banjaxed wrote:

Nearly every squad that Hoolahan was a part of he would have been considered the most technically gifted, and also the one with the best "footballing brains"... yet he wasn't a guaranteed starter.

So drawing any conclusions on Crowley/Byrne's ability based on who they play for, past failings, when they get dropped, etc, just seems redundant.

It will always come down to the manager and their personal preference based on how they want to play, but at the end of the day, not playing your most technically gifted player doesn't change the fact that they are STILL your most technically gifted player. 

Players like Byrne, hoolahan, crowley and kilkenny need to play in teams where possession of the football is required because that's where they excel. 

If you only have the ball for 30-35% of the game these players get labelled defensive liabilities. 

And if you never start them then you have no chance of keeping possession for more than 30% of the time... It astounds me how some people are blind to that link; we play guys who we know can't dominate possession, and then use that as confirmatory evidence for not starting guys who conceivably can keep possession. Vicious cycle.
Don't usually agree with you but this is so fecking true 


O'Shea is correct on that, but this is what I'm getting at the whole time- for a Crowley, or Byrne, or Wes type to actually make a difference, our whole philosophy has to change. We need CB's who can bring the ball out of defence and be able to hit an odd long pass or draw an opposition forward out of position to make an angle for a pass that might actually take an opposition player out of play- we currently have none of those. 

We need other the other midfielders to be able to get the ball with their back to the opposition goal, turn and pass forward or run forward with the ball to draw/commit lads into tackles- we don't have those either, we have Hendrick & Whelan. 

We need wingers who, when they get the ball, don't just tip it ahead of themselves and head for the corner in a race with the fullback, hoping to get a corner off a deflection from an attempt at a cross. We have McClean, who mostly does exactly those things, probably pragmatically realising a corner is our best chance of scoring. 

If the wingers can't beat their men with pace or skill, we need the CM's to support them and try play 1-2's/pass through the opposition midfield & defence and be able to switch play from one side to the other rapidly to stretch defences. We have Hendrick & Whelan etc. 

We need forwards to make runs and show for the ball. McGoldrick does this reasonably well, but on the other aspect of his job, hasn't scored a goal for us yet. The fact our CM's are generally withdrawn deep means he often has to drop back a long way from the goal to even take part in play, never mind getting close to the goal. 

Putting Crowley, or Byrne, or whoever is designated ''the next Wes'' is into the team, isn't in itself going to make a huge difference when Duffy reverts to type under pressure and hits a long diagonal over that players head in the vague direction of whoever is standing out on the right wing. 

If we are ever going to evolve into a possession based team, we need more than one Crowley or Bryne or whoever lads that are comfortable with the ball at their feet to be playing as well. That isn't going to happen under this manager, same as it never happened under the last one or the last one before that. 

It did happen under Mick the first time, but the likes of Royston, Kinsella, Holland, Duff, McAteer, Finnan, Robbie, even Breen & Stan, were far better with the ball at their feet than the crew we have now. Mick being a pragmatist sees this so has gone the pragmatic route with this squad. 

In an ideal world, we would have at least one ball playing CB, 2 ball playing CMs, wingers who could make a choice between retaining possession or taking on their man (rather than doing the same thing repetitively), and by retaining possession, I don't mean running up the wing, stopping, and passing it backwards to the fullback standing behind (who inevitably launches it long), I mean passing infield, continuing the run/switching infield etc. At the moment, we don't have those players. The U21 squad looks very promising in this regard, but at senior level, we're going to be seeing more of Hendrick, Whelan and someone else who does the basics in midfield ahead of a Crowley or Byrne. 

I dunno is it that some don't see this (surely most do see it) or do they genuinely think one player can & will make the difference to the entire style of play. If that player was an in-his-prime Roy Keane or Liam Brady, ya, maybe they would. But I don't see a championship midfielder or LOI man being that player. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2019 at 12:18am
Originally posted by deise316 deise316 wrote:

Originally posted by kearney304 kearney304 wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Originally posted by Banjaxed Banjaxed wrote:

Nearly every squad that Hoolahan was a part of he would have been considered the most technically gifted, and also the one with the best "footballing brains"... yet he wasn't a guaranteed starter.

So drawing any conclusions on Crowley/Byrne's ability based on who they play for, past failings, when they get dropped, etc, just seems redundant.

It will always come down to the manager and their personal preference based on how they want to play, but at the end of the day, not playing your most technically gifted player doesn't change the fact that they are STILL your most technically gifted player. 

Players like Byrne, hoolahan, crowley and kilkenny need to play in teams where possession of the football is required because that's where they excel. 

If you only have the ball for 30-35% of the game these players get labelled defensive liabilities. 

And if you never start them then you have no chance of keeping possession for more than 30% of the time... It astounds me how some people are blind to that link; we play guys who we know can't dominate possession, and then use that as confirmatory evidence for not starting guys who conceivably can keep possession. Vicious cycle.
Don't usually agree with you but this is so fecking true 


O'Shea is correct on that, but this is what I'm getting at the whole time- for a Crowley, or Byrne, or Wes type to actually make a difference, our whole philosophy has to change. We need CB's who can bring the ball out of defence and be able to hit an odd long pass or draw an opposition forward out of position to make an angle for a pass that might actually take an opposition player out of play- we currently have none of those. 

We need other the other midfielders to be able to get the ball with their back to the opposition goal, turn and pass forward or run forward with the ball to draw/commit lads into tackles- we don't have those either, we have Hendrick & Whelan. 

We need wingers who, when they get the ball, don't just tip it ahead of themselves and head for the corner in a race with the fullback, hoping to get a corner off a deflection from an attempt at a cross. We have McClean, who mostly does exactly those things, probably pragmatically realising a corner is our best chance of scoring. 

If the wingers can't beat their men with pace or skill, we need the CM's to support them and try play 1-2's/pass through the opposition midfield & defence and be able to switch play from one side to the other rapidly to stretch defences. We have Hendrick & Whelan etc. 

We need forwards to make runs and show for the ball. McGoldrick does this reasonably well, but on the other aspect of his job, hasn't scored a goal for us yet. The fact our CM's are generally withdrawn deep means he often has to drop back a long way from the goal to even take part in play, never mind getting close to the goal. 

Putting Crowley, or Byrne, or whoever is designated ''the next Wes'' is into the team, isn't in itself going to make a huge difference when Duffy reverts to type under pressure and hits a long diagonal over that players head in the vague direction of whoever is standing out on the right wing. 

If we are ever going to evolve into a possession based team, we need more than one Crowley or Bryne or whoever lads that are comfortable with the ball at their feet to be playing as well. That isn't going to happen under this manager, same as it never happened under the last one or the last one before that. 

It did happen under Mick the first time, but the likes of Royston, Kinsella, Holland, Duff, McAteer, Finnan, Robbie, even Breen & Stan, were far better with the ball at their feet than the crew we have now. Mick being a pragmatist sees this so has gone the pragmatic route with this squad. 

In an ideal world, we would have at least one ball playing CB, 2 ball playing CMs, wingers who could make a choice between retaining possession or taking on their man (rather than doing the same thing repetitively), and by retaining possession, I don't mean running up the wing, stopping, and passing it backwards to the fullback standing behind (who inevitably launches it long), I mean passing infield, continuing the run/switching infield etc. At the moment, we don't have those players. The U21 squad looks very promising in this regard, but at senior level, we're going to be seeing more of Hendrick, Whelan and someone else who does the basics in midfield ahead of a Crowley or Byrne. 

I dunno is it that some don't see this (surely most do see it) or do they genuinely think one player can & will make the difference to the entire style of play. If that player was an in-his-prime Roy Keane or Liam Brady, ya, maybe they would. But I don't see a championship midfielder or LOI man being that player. 





I agree with all of this, I would only add that when we play teams like Georgia at our home ground and the ireland team, without exaggertion, struggle badly to string 3 passes together the whole game, when the same players can move the ball with their club team, there has to be something wrong with how the team is set up and drilled.
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The top coaches today, Pep, Klopp, Poch etc - their calling card is that they improve players. Pochettino  improved his even without huge aid from the transfer market to the extent that they got to the CL final and finished in the top 3. A tier below them, the likes of Rodgers, Eddie Howe, Hassenhutil and Nuno attempt to do much the same thing on lesser resources with players of a little less ability (generally, as some of those teams have outstanding individuals too)

Then you have the well organised, difficult to beat lads like Hodgson & Dyche. Our managers have always been cut from this cloth rather than the other type. The top coaches success and style of play has affected everyone from chairmen to fans, most now want to play some kind of football that imitates the top teams, and chairmen are acting accordingly, going out actively seeking fellas who they think might be able to do this that were previously unheard of in the UK- Hassenhutil, Farke, or simply getting in a manager who changes the conservative style of play, like Brighton have done replacing Hughton with Potter. 

Irish fans are no different, but when it comes to selecting managers, we are top of the lack of imagination league, and have been for a long time. Delaney appointing Kenny could turn out to be an accidental stroke of genius, much the same as appointing Charlton was accidental. But accidental it is, there was certainly no thoughts coming down from the FAI about progressive football, if Kenny's appointment happens & works, its merely a coincidence. 

If it doesn't work, there will be a clamour on here to install Chris Hughton, another manager in the mould of Dyche, Roy H, Mick, MON who sets out with the aim of firstly not losing rather than winning. Sometimes ya get what ya deserve......



 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mully_85 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2019 at 5:04am
outstanding posts Deise ClapClap
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