The Crime Thread |
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Lenny82
Liam Brady Joined: 20 Aug 2010 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 2914 |
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He didn't appear immature or naive in the transcripts of his police interviews. A very calm, collected and articulate young man.
It took 5 interviews to get him to crack and admit he was there and witnessed the murder. The Gardai said they had no reason to believe he had any role in her 'disappearance' from their first few interactions with him. That would suggest that he is some kind of sociopath. I have followed this case closely. Looks like Boy A was evil but thick, which is why he didn't try to destroy the clothes he was wearing. Boy B was evil but smart. Knew what he was doing and thought that by merely witnessing and leaving no DNA/evidence, he would be in the clear.
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pre Madonna
Robbie Keane I am MALDING Joined: 30 Nov 2014 Location: Trumpton Status: Offline Points: 44659 |
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You can't be both?Have you no memory of being that age? Also,the profile of a sociopath is very similar to that of a teenage boy! As for the bit in bold, that backs up my impression. He witnessed something horrific and was unable to handle it and was scared and possibly still in thrall to someone he saw as a friend. An adult would struggle to know what to do having seen that. He is a child. Now, maybe he was in it, but it is just as possible that he panicked, handled it all wrong and incriminated himself.
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horsebox
Robbie Keane Born n bred in darndale. Joined: 03 Feb 2010 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 34724 |
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He didn't crack. Boy B's statements were always based the what the Garda knew or didn't know, who at all times based his statements on trying to distance himself as far away as possible from the crime scene. His statements evolved when the Garda produced factual evidence to prove he was lying. Over the course of the investigation, the Gardai through CCTV and then forensic evidence were able to place him at the actual crime scene. I was surprised to see him convicted of murder, I'd expected a lesser charge. |
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It was far across the sea,
When the devil got a hold of me, He wouldn't set me free, So he kept me soul for ransom. na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na. I'm a sailor man from Glasgow to |
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Het-field
Roy Keane By Appointment to His Majesty The King Joined: 08 Mar 2016 Status: Offline Points: 10347 |
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An interesting question, but I think it’s more simply answered than people assume. Inherent badness and bullying are the two most likely causes, and perhaps one of the key purposes of any sentence should be to ensure this is remediated. I struggle to blame society, and the reason for that is the limited comparable incidents, but the fact that they have been known to happen, and over various decades. I agree that the moral panic around certain facets of society is not the answer. The society James Bulger’s killers lived in was different to that of today, and the same applied to Mary Bell. But the consistency was that the perpetrators were all bullies, but were bad enough to actively view their victims as ‘disposable’, which is profoundly cold, horrendously callous, and downright unpardonable. This essentially renders them bad. |
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The Huntacha
Roy Keane Joined: 27 Mar 2012 Location: Dubai Status: Offline Points: 12704 |
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Still not sure where I stand on Boy B tbh. He is presented as both naive, and extremely intelligent. I just find it very hard to fathom why he didn't help Ana while she was being attacked, if it wasn't part of the plan. I understand about their age but they obviously don't think like rational 13 year old kids so it's hard to judge them on this basis. The other bits in bold are definitely the key points in this case. Are they just inherently evil like Venables & Thompson, etc? Or has something happened to them during their childhood which caused them to commit this murder? Like you say, I don't think you can attribute it to any of external factors that you mention, or otherwise there would be a lot more similar cases every year. Saw a good point mentioned relating to whether the school should have done more to tackle the bullying situation Ana faced, especially as she was highlighted as a potential target for bullying when she joined the school in first year. Personally, I don't think it should be a teacher's responsibility to do this, but there is an argument to be made for external social services linking up with schools to provide greater information to students, and staff, surrounding the negative consequences of issues such as bullying. While some might not be keen to expose 12/13 year olds to this, but the sooner they learn the impact of these actions, the better.
Edited by The Huntacha - 21 Jun 2019 at 11:51am |
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Jimmy Bullard - "Favorite band? Elastic."
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Lenny82
Liam Brady Joined: 20 Aug 2010 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 2914 |
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Well then, the fact that he didn't crack, only goes to show how complicit he was in all of this.
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pre Madonna
Robbie Keane I am MALDING Joined: 30 Nov 2014 Location: Trumpton Status: Offline Points: 44659 |
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I don’t buy this inherent evil stuff at all. Everyone is a product of their environment.
I also don’t get the surprise that he is naive and intelligent: he is 14! People develop very differently. Anyway, I know plenty of adults who are naive and intelligent and the reverse too. The fact is he did ‘crack’ in very different ways giving very different answers. That doesn’t suggest he is complicit, that shows he is scared and confused. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems like he is an anxious child who froze when seeing something horrific and then buried the memory, reimagining better histories that he was capable of coping with in the hope they would go away.
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Het-field
Roy Keane By Appointment to His Majesty The King Joined: 08 Mar 2016 Status: Offline Points: 10347 |
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I don’t believe in the concept of inherent evil. But I do believe some people are disposed to bad. That can be changed, and it can be altered as it is only a disposition. “Get em young” has a lot of sense as you can change the course of a life. A prime example is the killer of James Bulger, who left prison in 2001 and has never come to the notice of law enforcement since. He was known to have a bad disposition prior to the murder, and in the day of the murder he was stealing stuff as he deliberately skipped school. But in spite of what he was like as a 10 year old, and the unforgivable crime he committed, he has shown, by not coming to anybody’s notice since he was released, that he has made efforts to turn away from the bad instincts. That does not pardon him for the heinous crime he committed in 1993. That is the opposite to his accomplice who has continued to violate the law, in a very serious manner, showed blatant disregard for the terms of his licence, and has had to be provided with new identities.
My point there is that there is another way, and in the case of the latter boy in the Bulger case no amount of intervention and assistance has actually disposed him to being good.
Edited by Het-field - 21 Jun 2019 at 2:57pm |
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Dalymount79
Liam Brady Joined: 17 Oct 2013 Status: Offline Points: 1543 |
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You don’t know what Thompson has got up to as much as I don’t so please don’t state things as fact - unless of course you’re part of the team in the UK that track him. Venables situation is known as his identity was made known / compromised.
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Het-field
Roy Keane By Appointment to His Majesty The King Joined: 08 Mar 2016 Status: Offline Points: 10347 |
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My assumption is based on the fact that the other boy’s crimes subsequent to release in 2001 have been declared publicly. It is not a meritless assumption to make.
The compromised identity for the other boy happened at different times. Edited by Het-field - 21 Jun 2019 at 3:16pm |
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Neil Armstrong
Ray Houghton Cyavan Cyunt Joined: 17 Jun 2010 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 4991 |
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https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/married-charity-worker-killed-in-pub-attack-on-spanish-family-holiday-is-named-38241490.html
Desperate stuff lads I was there last year on the Holyers, your safe no where, God help his Wife & Children what a situation to find yourself in it could be anyone of us.
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Ulster Champions 2020 our 40th Title. Take that all ye Moanaghan ***ts!
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Trevor.ie
Ronnie Whelan Joined: 15 Apr 2019 Status: Offline Points: 51 |
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Have done some work with his wife over the years, Tragic, RIP John
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Its Keane Yes
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The Huntacha
Roy Keane Joined: 27 Mar 2012 Location: Dubai Status: Offline Points: 12704 |
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Teenagers are less risk-averse than they would be at an older age as they don't process the concept, and consequences, of risk due to the developmental state of their brain during adolescence. We all did stuff at that age that you wouldn't dream of doing now. But the nature of this crime, certainly in Boy A's case, makes me think that this was a predisposition. We're only looking at it from the outside but he did seem to have a dark side to his personality, and while it is possible that external factors caused this, I'm inclined to think that this was more due to possessing an inherent flaw, rather than stemming from a traumatic experience.
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Jimmy Bullard - "Favorite band? Elastic."
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pre Madonna
Robbie Keane I am MALDING Joined: 30 Nov 2014 Location: Trumpton Status: Offline Points: 44659 |
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I think we all have a dark side in our personality. I believe that every human being is capable of murder, that murder is nearly natural to us, but it is our awareness of the consequences that stops us(mostly) from acting on evil thoughts. Freud wrote a lot on it and while he didn't half talk some sh*te on occasion, I think he was on to something here. I don't just mean the punishment, I doubt anybody has ever done anything and considered the punishment, the fact a death penalty is still used in places proves that, but the guilt and morality of it. That isn't there at 14 to the same degree as it is at 24 or 34. A personality isn't something you are born with though. Sure, certain characteristics are genetic, but much of it is environment. Nearly every murderer(and by murder here I definitely mean a planned killing of another person or persons. just to remove doubt), and this is especially true in serial killers, do so to overcome frustrations they have with flaws in their personality. Often these flaws aren't flaws at all, but the environment that they grew up in taught them that they were flawed. What I am getting at here is the father of Boy A, who comes across as a strange character from the little detail we have of him. I am not simply saying 'blame the parents', like the **** who taught me Irish(badly) used to say, but I think there is something there. If the boy was a psychopath, it usually stems form living in a cold, sterile environment. If he was ashamed of something about his personality that he couldn't cope with because of parental response, that is also a factor. They are just theories, but they are more likely than just sayinghe was inherently bad. People who have studied the worst murderers and evil-doers in history rarely suggest that they were simply evil. There is always a reason or a trigger. It doesn't necessarily have to be a traumatic experience to bring this out in someone either; it his his own frustration with himself and his lack of emotional intelligence to manage it that will have led to this. What that was and why are still the questions that need answering, not for the Kriegels, the poor old f**kers, but so we might be able to prevent similar in the future. The reason people prefer the view that they are simply evil is that they don't want to empathise with a 'monster', but it is important to understand that reasoning something out and understanding why is not pitying them or empathising with them. It is simply trying to explain why, something that we have a moral duty to do. |
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Lenny82
Liam Brady Joined: 20 Aug 2010 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 2914 |
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https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/crime/confess-what-you-did-to-my-baby-mum-of-murdered-toddler-santina-speaks-out-38310002.html
How can anybody inflict those injuries on a toddler? Heartbreaking.
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armahibee
Liam Brady Joined: 11 Apr 2012 Location: belfast Status: Online Points: 2026 |
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Should be bringing back the death penalty for this kind of thing.
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BigStrongMan
Robbie Keane Just Modding Like Joined: 22 May 2009 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 107600 |
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How can someone have the chance to kill a 2 year old without being caught? All seems a bit strange
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PM me for all forum moderation queries.
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DUBLIN DOC
Jack Charlton The F The F The FAI Joined: 30 Jun 2009 Location: Abbottstown Status: Offline Points: 9155 |
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Reports another Hutch member could have shuffled off this mortal coil, sketchy enough reports I must add
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