You Boys in Green Homepage YBIG Shop
Forum Home Forum Home : Other Forums : Whatever!
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - The Crime Thread
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

The Crime Thread

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 158159160161162 325>
Author
Message
Lenny82 View Drop Down
Liam Brady
Liam Brady


Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 2914
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lenny82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 10:56pm
He didn't appear immature or naive in the transcripts of his police interviews. A very calm, collected and articulate young man.

It took 5 interviews to get him to crack and admit he was there and witnessed the murder.

The Gardai said they had no reason to believe he had any role in her 'disappearance' from their first few interactions with him. That would suggest that he is some kind of sociopath.

I have followed this case closely. Looks like Boy A was evil but thick, which is why he didn't try to destroy the clothes he was wearing. Boy B was evil but smart. Knew what he was doing and thought that by merely witnessing and leaving no DNA/evidence, he would be in the clear.
Back to Top
pre Madonna View Drop Down
Robbie Keane
Robbie Keane
Avatar
I am MALDING

Joined: 30 Nov 2014
Location: Trumpton
Status: Offline
Points: 44659
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 11:09pm
Originally posted by Lenny82 Lenny82 wrote:

He didn't appear immature or naive in the transcripts of his police interviews. A very calm, collected and articulate young man.

It took 5 interviews to get him to crack and admit he was there and witnessed the murder.

The Gardai said they had no reason to believe he had any role in her 'disappearance' from their first few interactions with him. That would suggest that he is some kind of sociopath.

I have followed this case closely. Looks like Boy A was evil but thick, which is why he didn't try to destroy the clothes he was wearing. Boy B was evil but smart. Knew what he was doing and thought that by merely witnessing and leaving no DNA/evidence, he would be in the clear.
You can't be both?Have you no memory of being that age? Also,the profile of a sociopath is very similar to that of a teenage boy!

As for the bit in bold, that backs up my impression. He witnessed something horrific and was unable to handle it and was scared and possibly still in thrall to someone he saw as a friend. An adult would struggle to know what to do having seen that. He is a child.

Now, maybe he was in it, but it is just as possible that he panicked, handled it all wrong and incriminated himself.
Back to Top
horsebox View Drop Down
Robbie Keane
Robbie Keane
Avatar
Born n bred in darndale.

Joined: 03 Feb 2010
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 34724
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horsebox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 9:21am
Originally posted by Lenny82 Lenny82 wrote:

He didn't appear immature or naive in the transcripts of his police interviews. A very calm, collected and articulate young man.

It took 5 interviews to get him to crack and admit he was there and witnessed the murder.



He didn't crack.
Boy B's statements were always based the what the Garda knew or didn't know, who at all times based his statements on trying to distance himself as far away as possible from the crime scene.

His statements evolved when the Garda produced factual evidence to prove he was lying. Over the course of the investigation, the Gardai through CCTV and then forensic evidence were able to place him at the actual crime scene.

I was surprised to see him convicted of murder, I'd expected a lesser charge.
It was far across the sea,
When the devil got a hold of me,
He wouldn't set me free,
So he kept me soul for ransom.
na na na na na na na na na
na na na na na na na na.
I'm a sailor man from Glasgow to
Back to Top
Het-field View Drop Down
Roy Keane
Roy Keane

By Appointment to His Majesty The King

Joined: 08 Mar 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 10347
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 11:32am
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:




but the question is why? 



An interesting question, but I think it’s more simply answered than people assume. Inherent badness and bullying are the two most likely causes, and perhaps one of the key purposes of any sentence should be to ensure this is remediated.

I struggle to blame society, and the reason for that is the limited comparable incidents, but the fact that they have been known to happen, and over various decades. I agree that the moral panic around certain facets of society is not the answer. The society James Bulger’s killers lived in was different to that of today, and the same applied to Mary Bell. But the consistency was that the perpetrators were all bullies, but were bad enough to actively view their victims as ‘disposable’, which is profoundly cold, horrendously callous, and downright unpardonable. This essentially renders them bad.


Back to Top
The Huntacha View Drop Down
Roy Keane
Roy Keane
Avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2012
Location: Dubai
Status: Offline
Points: 12704
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Huntacha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 11:50am
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Conor Gallagher’s piece in the Irish Times is award worthy.

It is an incredibly well written, and deeply sensitive article, while not eliminating key details about the case.

A truly horrific story and case. I hope the process and the outcome has given a degree of comfort to a family, who I can’t possibly imagine what they are going through and have gone through.
It really is excellent and he deserves recognition for it alright. I haven't followed the case too closely, largely due to the sensationalism and bullsh*t that surrounds cases like this (not that there are many like this), but the judge seems to deserve credit based on that article too; it seems to have been handled very well in the circumstances.
I am not going to criticise the jurors, they have spent much more time considering the facts than I have, but I do have some sympathy for 'Boy B'. He comes across as immature and naive, a child that was way out of his depth and didn't know how to handle a ridiculous situation. Like all teenagers, he seemed to put far too much weighting in a personal relationship with somebody he thought was interesting or exciting. 

Boy A is unquestionably f**ked up, but the question is why? How does a kid get like that? It isn't heavy metal, satanism, weird porn or video games, that's for sure. If it was, there would be several cases like this every week; I would probably have been up for one or two myself. I hope that they can find out why, it might help preventing it in the future. It won't be much help to the poor Kriegels, some ordeal for them to go through.

I really don't get the need or want to try and find pictures of the lads and their names. You wouldn'[t have to join to many dots to see that a sick society breeds sick children. Who's responsible, and all that.

Still not sure where I stand on Boy B tbh. He is presented as both naive, and extremely intelligent. I just find it very hard to fathom why he didn't help Ana while she was being attacked, if it wasn't part of the plan. I understand about their age but they obviously don't think like rational 13 year old kids so it's hard to judge them on this basis.

The other bits in bold are definitely the key points in this case. Are they just inherently evil like Venables & Thompson, etc? Or has something happened to them during their childhood which caused them to commit this murder? Like you say, I don't think you can attribute it to any of external factors that you mention, or otherwise there would be a lot more similar cases every year. 

Saw a good point mentioned  relating to whether the school should have done more to tackle the bullying situation Ana faced, especially as she was highlighted as a potential target for bullying when she joined the school in first year.

Personally, I don't think it should be a teacher's responsibility to do this, but there is an argument to be made for external social services linking up with schools to provide greater information to students, and staff, surrounding the negative consequences of issues such as bullying. While some might not be keen to expose 12/13 year olds to this, but the sooner they learn the impact of these actions, the better.


Edited by The Huntacha - 21 Jun 2019 at 11:51am
Jimmy Bullard - "Favorite band? Elastic."
Back to Top
Lenny82 View Drop Down
Liam Brady
Liam Brady


Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 2914
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lenny82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Originally posted by Lenny82 Lenny82 wrote:

He didn't appear immature or naive in the transcripts of his police interviews. A very calm, collected and articulate young man.

It took 5 interviews to get him to crack and admit he was there and witnessed the murder.



He didn't crack.
Boy B's statements were always based the what the Garda knew or didn't know, who at all times based his statements on trying to distance himself as far away as possible from the crime scene.

His statements evolved when the Garda produced factual evidence to prove he was lying. Over the course of the investigation, the Gardai through CCTV and then forensic evidence were able to place him at the actual crime scene.

I was surprised to see him convicted of murder, I'd expected a lesser charge.

Well then, the fact that he didn't crack, only goes to show how complicit he was in all of this.
Back to Top
pre Madonna View Drop Down
Robbie Keane
Robbie Keane
Avatar
I am MALDING

Joined: 30 Nov 2014
Location: Trumpton
Status: Offline
Points: 44659
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 2:00pm
I don’t buy this inherent evil stuff at all. Everyone is a product of their environment. 

I also don’t get the surprise that he is naive and intelligent: he is 14! People develop very differently. Anyway, I know plenty of adults who are naive and intelligent and the reverse too.

The fact is he did ‘crack’ in very different ways giving very different answers. That doesn’t suggest he is complicit, that shows he is scared and confused. 
Maybe I am wrong, but it seems like he is an anxious child who froze when seeing something horrific and then buried the memory, reimagining better histories that he was capable of coping with in the hope they would go away. 
Back to Top
Het-field View Drop Down
Roy Keane
Roy Keane

By Appointment to His Majesty The King

Joined: 08 Mar 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 10347
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 2:56pm
I don’t believe in the concept of inherent evil. But I do believe some people are disposed to bad. That can be changed, and it can be altered as it is only a disposition. “Get em young” has a lot of sense as you can change the course of a life. A prime example is the killer of James Bulger, who left prison in 2001 and has never come to the notice of law enforcement since. He was known to have a bad disposition prior to the murder, and in the day of the murder he was stealing stuff as he deliberately skipped school. But in spite of what he was like as a 10 year old, and the unforgivable crime he committed, he has shown, by not coming to anybody’s notice since he was released, that he has made efforts to turn away from the bad instincts. That does not pardon him for the heinous crime he committed in 1993. That is the opposite to his accomplice who has continued to violate the law, in a very serious manner, showed blatant disregard for the terms of his licence, and has had to be provided with new identities.

My point there is that there is another way, and in the case of the latter boy in the Bulger case no amount of intervention and assistance has actually disposed him to being good.


Edited by Het-field - 21 Jun 2019 at 2:57pm
Back to Top
Dalymount79 View Drop Down
Liam Brady
Liam Brady
Avatar

Joined: 17 Oct 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 1543
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dalymount79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 3:12pm
You don’t know what Thompson has got up to as much as I don’t so please don’t state things as fact - unless of course you’re part of the team in the UK that track him.

Venables situation is known as his identity was made known / compromised.

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

I don’t believe in the concept of inherent evil. But I do believe some people are disposed to bad. That can be changed, and it can be altered as it is only a disposition. “Get em young” has a lot of sense as you can change the course of a life. A prime example is the killer of James Bulger, who left prison in 2001 and has never come to the notice of law enforcement since. He was known to have a bad disposition prior to the murder, and in the day of the murder he was stealing stuff as he deliberately skipped school. But in spite of what he was like as a 10 year old, and the unforgivable crime he committed, he has shown, by not coming to anybody’s notice since he was released, that he has made efforts to turn away from the bad instincts. That does not pardon him for the heinous crime he committed in 1993. That is the opposite to his accomplice who has continued to violate the law, in a very serious manner, showed blatant disregard for the terms of his licence, and has had to be provided with new identities.

My point there is that there is another way, and in the case of the latter boy in the Bulger case no amount of intervention and assistance has actually disposed him to being good.
Back to Top
Het-field View Drop Down
Roy Keane
Roy Keane

By Appointment to His Majesty The King

Joined: 08 Mar 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 10347
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 3:15pm
My assumption is based on the fact that the other boy’s crimes subsequent to release in 2001 have been declared publicly. It is not a meritless assumption to make.

The compromised identity for the other boy happened at different times.


Edited by Het-field - 21 Jun 2019 at 3:16pm
Back to Top
Neil Armstrong View Drop Down
Ray Houghton
Ray Houghton
Avatar
Cyavan Cyunt

Joined: 17 Jun 2010
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 4991
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neil Armstrong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 5:51pm
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/married-charity-worker-killed-in-pub-attack-on-spanish-family-holiday-is-named-38241490.html

Desperate stuff ladsThumbs Down I was there last year on the Holyers, your safe no where, God help his Wife & Children what a situation to find yourself in it could be anyone of us.
Ulster Champions 2020 our 40th Title. Take that all ye Moanaghan ***ts!
Back to Top
Trevor.ie View Drop Down
Ronnie Whelan
Ronnie Whelan
Avatar

Joined: 15 Apr 2019
Status: Offline
Points: 51
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trevor.ie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 6:34pm
Have done some work with his wife over the years, Tragic, RIP John
Its Keane Yes
Back to Top
The Huntacha View Drop Down
Roy Keane
Roy Keane
Avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2012
Location: Dubai
Status: Offline
Points: 12704
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Huntacha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 8:26pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I don’t buy this inherent evil stuff at all. Everyone is a product of their environment. 

I also don’t get the surprise that he is naive and intelligent: he is 14! People develop very differently. Anyway, I know plenty of adults who are naive and intelligent and the reverse too.

The fact is he did ‘crack’ in very different ways giving very different answers. That doesn’t suggest he is complicit, that shows he is scared and confused. 
Maybe I am wrong, but it seems like he is an anxious child who froze when seeing something horrific and then buried the memory, reimagining better histories that he was capable of coping with in the hope they would go away. 

Teenagers are less risk-averse than they would be at an older age as they don't process the concept, and consequences, of risk due to the developmental state of their brain during adolescence. We all did stuff at that age that you wouldn't dream of doing now. 

But the nature of this crime, certainly in Boy A's case, makes me think that this was a predisposition. We're only looking at it from the outside but he did seem to have a dark side to his personality, and while it is possible that external factors caused this, I'm inclined to think that this was more due to possessing an inherent flaw, rather than stemming from a traumatic experience.
Jimmy Bullard - "Favorite band? Elastic."
Back to Top
pre Madonna View Drop Down
Robbie Keane
Robbie Keane
Avatar
I am MALDING

Joined: 30 Nov 2014
Location: Trumpton
Status: Offline
Points: 44659
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 9:43pm
Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I don’t buy this inherent evil stuff at all. Everyone is a product of their environment. 

I also don’t get the surprise that he is naive and intelligent: he is 14! People develop very differently. Anyway, I know plenty of adults who are naive and intelligent and the reverse too.

The fact is he did ‘crack’ in very different ways giving very different answers. That doesn’t suggest he is complicit, that shows he is scared and confused. 
Maybe I am wrong, but it seems like he is an anxious child who froze when seeing something horrific and then buried the memory, reimagining better histories that he was capable of coping with in the hope they would go away. 

Teenagers are less risk-averse than they would be at an older age as they don't process the concept, and consequences, of risk due to the developmental state of their brain during adolescence. We all did stuff at that age that you wouldn't dream of doing now. 

But the nature of this crime, certainly in Boy A's case, makes me think that this was a predisposition. We're only looking at it from the outside but he did seem to have a dark side to his personality, and while it is possible that external factors caused this, I'm inclined to think that this was more due to possessing an inherent flaw, rather than stemming from a traumatic experience.
 I think we all have a dark side in our personality. I believe that every human being is capable of murder, that murder is nearly natural to us, but it is our awareness of the consequences that stops us(mostly) from acting on evil thoughts. Freud wrote a lot on it and while he didn't half talk some sh*te on occasion, I think he was on to something here.  I don't just mean the punishment, I doubt anybody has ever done anything and considered the punishment, the fact a death penalty is still used in places proves that, but the guilt and morality of it. That isn't there at 14 to the same degree as it is at 24 or 34.
A personality isn't  something you are born with though. Sure, certain characteristics are genetic, but much of it is environment. Nearly every murderer(and by murder here I definitely mean a planned killing of another person or persons. just to remove doubt), and this is especially true in serial killers, do so to overcome frustrations they have with flaws in their personality. Often these flaws aren't flaws at all, but the environment that they grew up in taught them that they were flawed. 
What I am getting at here is the father of Boy A, who comes across as a strange character from the little detail we have of him. I am not simply saying 'blame the parents', like the **** who taught me Irish(badly) used to say, but I think there is something there. If the boy was a psychopath, it usually stems form living in a cold, sterile environment. If he was ashamed of something about his personality that he couldn't cope with because of parental response, that is also a factor. They are just theories, but they are more likely than just sayinghe was inherently bad. People who  have studied the worst murderers and evil-doers in history rarely suggest that they were simply evil. There is always a reason or a trigger. 
It doesn't necessarily have to be a traumatic experience to bring this out in someone either; it his his own frustration with himself and his lack of emotional intelligence to manage it that will have led to this. What that was and why are still the questions that need answering, not for the Kriegels, the poor old f**kers,  but so we might be able to prevent similar in the future.

The reason people prefer the view that they are simply evil is that they don't want to empathise with a 'monster', but it is important to understand that reasoning something out and understanding why is not pitying them or empathising with them. It is simply trying to explain why, something that we have a moral duty to do.

Back to Top
Lenny82 View Drop Down
Liam Brady
Liam Brady


Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 2914
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lenny82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 7:53pm
Back to Top
armahibee View Drop Down
Liam Brady
Liam Brady


Joined: 11 Apr 2012
Location: belfast
Status: Online
Points: 2026
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote armahibee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by Lenny82 Lenny82 wrote:

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/crime/confess-what-you-did-to-my-baby-mum-of-murdered-toddler-santina-speaks-out-38310002.html

How can anybody inflict those injuries on a toddler? Heartbreaking.

Should be bringing back the death penalty for this kind of thing.
Back to Top
BigStrongMan View Drop Down
Robbie Keane
Robbie Keane

Just Modding Like

Joined: 22 May 2009
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 107600
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigStrongMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 3:56pm
How can someone have the chance to kill a 2 year old without being caught? All seems a bit strange 
PM me for all forum moderation queries.
Back to Top
DUBLIN DOC View Drop Down
Jack Charlton
Jack Charlton
Avatar
The F The F The FAI

Joined: 30 Jun 2009
Location: Abbottstown
Status: Offline
Points: 9155
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DUBLIN DOC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2019 at 11:07pm
Reports another Hutch member could have shuffled off this mortal coil, sketchy enough reports I must add
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 158159160161162 325>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.00
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.