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The Crime Thread

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SuperDave84 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 2:59pm
Under s. 93(2)(a)(iii) of the Children Act 2001, as amended by s. 139 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006, a court can dispense with the requirement of anonymity if satisfied that do so is *necessary* in the public interest.

That is undoubtedly a very high bar. Where there are probably two appeals coming, and the resultant possibility of a retrial or retrials, I don't see that it can be argued that it is in the public interest to know who these two boys are, where to do so could make any retrial even more difficult.

In the event they are sentenced and thereafter exhaust their appeals, and are due to be released at any stage, it could then arguably be necessary in the public interest that their identity is revealed. That is the only time I can see it being close to arguable. However, given that any such release would likely involve a fair degree of probation supervision or other oversight, that argument is unlikely to be successful. After all, if they are released it can only be because the punitive element of any sentence will have been served and the primary motivation at that stage will be rehabilitation, especially if they are released under supervision or on licence ... and it is hard to see how revealing their identity at that stage would be in the public interest, seeing as it could only harm their rehabilitation. Their rehabilitation is in the public interest too, remember.


Edited by SuperDave84 - 20 Jun 2019 at 3:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DUBLIN DOC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 3:04pm
I didn’t really keep up with this case, but did the parents of one of those poxbottles not try to destroy evidence by washing clothes ? If so why were the parents not done for their part
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lassassinblanc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 3:06pm
Dave question

Could they be re trialled after the age of 18 and given an adult sentence?

Or will it always be they committed the crime as underage  and any re-trial and subsequent sentence take this into account
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by lassassinblanc lassassinblanc wrote:

Dave question

Could they be re trialled after the age of 18 and given an adult sentence?

Or will it always be they committed the crime as underage  and any re-trial and subsequent sentence take this into account


The mandatory minimum of life only applies for crimes committed as an adult, as far as I know.

I don't know if anyone has ever been tried after they turned 18 for a crime they committed before they turned 18 and for which the mandatory sentence was life, so for that reason nothing I say is definite. There is possibly a question mark over it, if I'm honest.

Anyway, as they are children, any appeal is likely to be heard quick enough. This trial was probably heard a year earlier than it would have been were they adults. I'd imagine the Court of Appeal will have heard any appeal by the end of this year.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Denis Irwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 4:21pm
Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

Originally posted by lassassinblanc lassassinblanc wrote:

Dave question

Could they be re trialled after the age of 18 and given an adult sentence?

Or will it always be they committed the crime as underage  and any re-trial and subsequent sentence take this into account


The mandatory minimum of life only applies for crimes committed as an adult, as far as I know.

I don't know if anyone has ever been tried after they turned 18 for a crime they committed before they turned 18 and for which the mandatory sentence was life, so for that reason nothing I say is definite. There is possibly a question mark over it, if I'm honest.

Anyway, as they are children, any appeal is likely to be heard quick enough. This trial was probably heard a year earlier than it would have been were they adults. I'd imagine the Court of Appeal will have heard any appeal by the end of this year.


Can the Judge impose a 'life sentence' if he wants to given the discretionary nature of the sentencing powers that he has as they're under 18 ? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 4:31pm
Yes, he can. There can be no credit for a guilty plea here, anyway.

Arguably that would be better than a determinate sentence, even if it means they might be released in twenty years. A flat 30 year sentence would do no one any favours, as they would be released at the end with no oversight.

What I think should happen is either a life sentence (so that when they are released, it is on licence) or alternatively a long sentence (say 30 to 40 years) with a chunk at the end suspended, say 10 years (so they can be supervised on release).

Realistically, you don't want them released in their twenties or thirties but you want them to have a chance at being rehabilitated when they are released, which is why a dose of supervision of some sort is necessary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MC Hammered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 4:42pm

Are there any studies done or stats in relation to the number of kids imprisoned for heinous offences who have been actually been rehabilitated? By that I mean that they did not offend again or end up in jail? 
Let's be honest, these two little kunts are fooked up and the system is not going to help them become productive well adjusted taxpayers in 10/20 years. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 5:11pm
It is very, very rare that kids commit crimes like this and rehabilitation models are different the world over, as is the definition of a "successful" outcome (got a job? crime free for five years? serious crime free for five years? does a speeding charge count against you? minor shoplifting? is the outcome influenced less by the person's personality rather than the fact they were institutionalised?), so I'm not sure there are any studies that would assist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MC Hammered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 5:28pm

I get that there is probably very little data for what I'm asking. I would regard rehabilitation as no violent or serious offences again in future such as accessing child porn. I wouldn't be quite as concerned about a late renewal of motor tax for instance. 

As far as I know, Jamie Bolgers killers weren't long in acting the bollox after their release. I realise that's a fairly small sample survey admittedly. 

These lads are going into prison starting from about as low a base as you can and it's highly unlikely that their future is going to be in any way bright and nor should it be. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 5:46pm
Well, I think one of Bolger's killers did stuff but not the other one. Venables rather than Thompson. I don't think there's been anything about Thompson having committed offences.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Huntacha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by MC Hammered MC Hammered wrote:


Are there any studies done or stats in relation to the number of kids imprisoned for heinous offences who have been actually been rehabilitated? By that I mean that they did not offend again or end up in jail? 
Let's be honest, these two little kunts are fooked up and the system is not going to help them become productive well adjusted taxpayers in 10/20 years. 

The teenager convicted murder of the child in Palmerstown in the 70's mentioned in the article (satanic ritual) didn't re-offend but ended up working in a church in Spain apparently. The book, "The Boy in the Attic" is worth a read.

One of the Bolger killers, Jon Venables, was convicted twice for possessing child porn. The other hasn't re-offended.

I see someone shared the details of the supposed identity of one of the boys convicted of Ana's murder. Only for it to be the wrong person.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MC Hammered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 6:14pm

Fair enough lads, I’m probably talking out of my hole. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horsebox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 6:22pm
Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

Originally posted by MC Hammered MC Hammered wrote:



Are there any studies done or stats in relation to the number of kids imprisoned for heinous offences who have been actually been rehabilitated? By that I mean that they did not offend again or end up in jail? 
Let's be honest, these two little kunts are fooked up and the system is not going to help them become productive well adjusted taxpayers in 10/20 years. 


The teenager convicted murder of the child in Palmerstown in the 70's mentioned in the article (satanic ritual) didn't re-offend but ended up working in a church in Spain apparently. The book, "The Boy in the Attic" is worth a read.

One of the Bolger killers, Jon Venables, was convicted twice for possessing child porn. The other hasn't re-offended.

I see someone shared the details of the supposed identity of one of the boys convicted of Ana's murder. Only for it to be the wrong person.


We don't actually know that Thompson re-offended or not. He may well have, it's just not in the public domain.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shedite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 8:15pm
The following line on the rte.ie article has me thinking they may not be in prison/dentention for as long as people expect

It says any penalty imposed on a child for an offence should cause as little interference as possible with the child's "legitimate activities and pursuits" and should take the least restrictive form that is appropriate in the circumstances.

In particular, it says "a period of detention should be imposed only as a measure of last resort."


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lenny82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 8:20pm
Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

Originally posted by MC Hammered MC Hammered wrote:



Are there any studies done or stats in relation to the number of kids imprisoned for heinous offences who have been actually been rehabilitated? By that I mean that they did not offend again or end up in jail? 
Let's be honest, these two little kunts are fooked up and the system is not going to help them become productive well adjusted taxpayers in 10/20 years. 


The teenager convicted murder of the child in Palmerstown in the 70's mentioned in the article (satanic ritual) didn't re-offend but ended up working in a church in Spain apparently. The book, "The Boy in the Attic" is worth a read.

One of the Bolger killers, Jon Venables, was convicted twice for possessing child porn. The other hasn't re-offended.

I see someone shared the details of the supposed identity of one of the boys convicted of Ana's murder. Only for it to be the wrong person.


We don't actually know that Thompson re-offended or not. He may well have, it's just not in the public domain.


I read an article recently that suggested he has not re-offended and is in a happy  homosexual relationship in the UK.

Do you remember that Wayne O'Donoghue fella in Cork who killed his 11 year old neighbour? He was 19 at the time, did 3 years and was given a new identity. One of the rags tracked him down and he was in University in England and had a girlfriend. The family of the victim but be sickened that this guy gets anonymity and enjoys a 'normal' life. I would not be surprised if these 2 little bastards get out before they are 18 and given new identities.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DUBLIN DOC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 9:06pm
I see Mr Big has walked free, all charges against him for a tiger kidnapping was completely dropped without any explanation
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horsebox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 9:10pm
He has walked free on a number of charges.
It was far across the sea,
When the devil got a hold of me,
He wouldn't set me free,
So he kept me soul for ransom.
na na na na na na na na na
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 10:30pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Conor Gallagher’s piece in the Irish Times is award worthy.

It is an incredibly well written, and deeply sensitive article, while not eliminating key details about the case.

A truly horrific story and case. I hope the process and the outcome has given a degree of comfort to a family, who I can’t possibly imagine what they are going through and have gone through.
It really is excellent and he deserves recognition for it alright. I haven't followed the case too closely, largely due to the sensationalism and bullsh*t that surrounds cases like this (not that there are many like this), but the judge seems to deserve credit based on that article too; it seems to have been handled very well in the circumstances.
I am not going to criticise the jurors, they have spent much more time considering the facts than I have, but I do have some sympathy for 'Boy B'. He comes across as immature and naive, a child that was way out of his depth and didn't know how to handle a ridiculous situation. Like all teenagers, he seemed to put far too much weighting in a personal relationship with somebody he thought was interesting or exciting. 

Boy A is unquestionably f**ked up, but the question is why? How does a kid get like that? It isn't heavy metal, satanism, weird porn or video games, that's for sure. If it was, there would be several cases like this every week; I would probably have been up for one or two myself. I hope that they can find out why, it might help preventing it in the future. It won't be much help to the poor Kriegels, some ordeal for them to go through.

I really don't get the need or want to try and find pictures of the lads and their names. You wouldn'[t have to join to many dots to see that a sick society breeds sick children. Who's responsible, and all that.
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