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Jack Charlton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by BrendanD88 BrendanD88 wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Three highly competent, experienced managers have been picking Dier consistently for their teams over the last four years at a relatively young age, even when they've got alternatives. Two of those teams have been pretty successful, and he played well in the one which wasn't (RH's England).

So whether outside observers like us see what he brings to the team or not means very little compared to what they think, unless, of course, you imagine you know more about these things than they do.

Which I don't.

But you clearly do.


Who are the alternatives that England have?
Well if you believe some of the Einsteins on here, young Declan Rice is already miles better than him, for a start... Wacko

Or there's Henderson, Shelvey and Lewis Cook, should Rice prefer the Three Provinces to the Three Lions.

Alternatively, one of the finest displays of DM I've ever seen was by Phil Jones (of all people) when he was MOTM against Spurs (of all teams) soon after he signed for MU: 
(Fergie always rated him, but what did he know?)

And did you watch England's last three games (0-0 in Croatia, 3-2 in Spain, 2-1 at home to Croatia)? Guess who played all 270 mins? The other 10 must be some players to carry a passenger like Dier against opposition like that...

Meanwhile, Spurs have Wanyama, Dembele and Winks all competing to play DM, yet still he gets regular games.

And considering they told Man U to do one when they came in to buy him, it's not as if they don't rate him.


Edited by Territorial - 07 Dec 2018 at 6:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 7:03pm
Jonjo Shelvey LOL

So lazy that he costs Newcastle more goals than he does actually creating them, even Garry Monk called him a lazy bastard! Thus giving Sissoko a close run for the laziest player ever title, but atleast Sissoko is a very good player when he can be bothered.


Edited by coyne - 07 Dec 2018 at 7:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zinedine Kilbane 110 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2018 at 9:25am
Jesus, I seen all the new posts and thought Spurs had signed somebody great in January. 

Dier form has dropped this season.
Actually you could say the same of Lloris and Dele.

It’s amazing we are 3rd with some key players underperforming.
Kane looks tired in games but keeps scoring.

I think once Spurs get into the new stadium there will be a real buzz and they’ll have a strong finish to the season.

I think they will finish top 4. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Moleman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2018 at 11:29am
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

I genuinely have no idea how Dier has played so many games at such a high level. He is abysmal. Massive Pochettino fan but there's no real defense of his selection over the past few years.
Regularly picked also by Hodgson and Southgate (38 caps aged 24).

I'd back the judgement of those three managers over yours, tbh.

By your logic nobody can question anything a professional manager higher up the footballing ladder ever does? Moronic point to make, and actually does nothing at all to argue that Dier isn't an awful player.
No, my "logic" (reasoning, actually) is that Messrs. Hodgson, Southgate and Pochettino probably know more about football than you.

Your reasoning seems to imply that managers such as Southgate, Hodgson, or Pochettino don't make mistakes. That anyone below the level of a professional manager has very little knowledge of football in comparison to those in charge of the biggest club and country sides. Tbh what you're saying in this regard is utter rubbish. 

On Dier himself, obviously Pochettino sees more than anyone on here. So he should be very well informed. That doesn't mean he can't be wrong when making a decision on a player though. My take on Dier is that Pochettino sees him as someone who is physically very strong, isn't slow, and he is very rarely injured (an issue with other Spurs mids). So Dier is very reliable in that regard. Pochettino clearly has huge faith in him and that is a big thing with a lot of managers.

If you watch Dier, which I'm sure you have, he makes some horrendous mistakes for a midfielder. Especially one that is meant to mind a certain defensive space. He rarely knows where to be. He wanders, daydreams when he should be all over an opponent in a certain area of the pitch. Imo, he simply isn't that good. He's not smart enough to play where he plays. I trust my eyes when seeing Dier, I've seen how many errors he makes so I don't rate him as a high level player because of that. 
"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zinedine Kilbane 110 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 12:42pm
Tottenham's tally of 36 points from 16 games is their best ever start to a Premier League season. Indeed, only twice before have they had a better total after 16 matches in a top-flight campaign (46 in 1960-61 and 37 in 1956-57 - based on three points for a win).
No draws certainly help. 

Rested Kane and Eriksen yesterday for the match v Barcelona.
Barcelona are g’teed top so you assume they will rest some players.
Still a tough ask to beat them away.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 7:51pm
Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

Thus giving Sissoko a close run for the laziest player ever title, but at least Sissoko is a very good player when he can be bothered.
Dunno if you read the Sunday Times' match report on Spurs v Leicester today. 
Their reporter made "non-stop Moussa Sissoko" [sic] his MOTM.

Talking of which, this is 2018. You know, when football has long-since adopted fitness monitors, TV cameras, statistics and the most advanced medical science. Or did you imagine those black yokes the players wear under their shirts were Trainer Bras or something?

All the managers at the top clubs have all the stats for running distances and activity etc available for every training session, never mind every match. It is virtually impossible for a player to get away with hiding/not trying these days, especially for so notoriously demanding a manager like Pochettino*, whose scrutiny even applies to what the players' demeanour looks like when they drive into the training ground!

Which is why "lazy" players went out of the game years ago, along with fat fullbacks and mudheap pitches.


* - Last season Spurs covered the 3rd longest distances of any EPL team, behind Howe's Bournemouth and Pulis' WBA: https://www.premierleague.com/news/510837
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 8:19pm
Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Your reasoning seems to imply that managers such as Southgate, Hodgson, or Pochettino don't make mistakes. That anyone below the level of a professional manager has very little knowledge of football in comparison to those in charge of the biggest club and country sides. Tbh what you're saying in this regard is utter rubbish. 
No, I didn't imply it, you inferred it.

Of course all managers make mistakes from time to time. 

I'm just saying that three highly experienced, competent managers are unlikely all to go on making the exact same mistake (i.e. picking an obviously "awful" player) over nearly five years and 250 games, time and again, especially when they could select/buy someone better. 

Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

On Dier himself, obviously Pochettino sees more than anyone on here. So he should be very well informed. That doesn't mean he can't be wrong when making a decision on a player though. My take on Dier is that Pochettino sees him as someone who is physically very strong, isn't slow, and he is very rarely injured (an issue with other Spurs mids). So Dier is very reliable in that regard. Pochettino clearly has huge faith in him and that is a big thing with a lot of managers.
So how does that (grudging) assessment correspond with Dier being "awful", "horrible", "sh*te", "stealing a living" etc.

If you're to tell me that Dier isn't the greatest DM in England, I certainly wouldn't argue. If you were to tell me that he wasn't even the best DM at Spurs, I could accept that, too (though Dembele is now clearly past it, and Wanyama has been hampered by injury, for instance).

But I repeat: "awful", "horrible", "sh*te", "stealing a living"?

Sorry, but those comments are just opinionated pub blether, from people who must get their information from message boards, talk radio, third rate pundits and 5 minutes highlights on MOTD. 

Oh and drink, too, I shouldn't wonder.

Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

If you watch Dier, which I'm sure you have, he makes some horrendous mistakes for a midfielder. Especially one that is meant to mind a certain defensive space. He rarely knows where to be. He wanders, daydreams when he should be all over an opponent in a certain area of the pitch. Imo, he simply isn't that good. He's not smart enough to play where he plays. I trust my eyes when seeing Dier, I've seen how many errors he makes so I don't rate him as a high level player because of that. 
I do indeed watch a huge amount of Spurs, and not just on TV, but live, too. 
Of course Dier makes mistakes, but so too does Hugo Lloris for example.
Are you telling me that he's "awful" too?
Or might it be that Pochettino and Southgate/Deschamps still pick them despite those errors for all the other things they bring to the team?

Speaking of which, did you see Spurs v Southampton during the week? Every time Trippier bombed forward down the right in the first hour, Dier stepped 15 or 20 yards back to the RB position to cover him. Then when Trippier got back, he resumed his position in midfield. This must have happened at least 10 times, with Dier only being called upon to actually intervene maybe the once.

So yeah, if watching on TV, you might have thought that Dier wasn't doing anything, but there was actually much more to his game than that.

Which Pochettino will doubtless have been aware of.

Because it's his job.

Which he's actually quite good at. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Moleman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 8:42pm
 I mean it's just utter guff you are spouting. As I've said numerous times, Dier obviously has positive traits. His physical presence being his biggest plus imo. The fact that Pochettino trusts him is a lot to do with the fact he is rarely unavailable due to injury/niggles I presume, unlike a lot of Spurs other midfielders in the past 2/3 years. It cannot be underestimated how important that is to a football manager.

Your condescending tone would be pathetic if it wasn't so laughable when it comes to all things Dier. You make out as if him covering an attacking full back is an incredibly difficult role. The difficult part in midfield play, especially as a more defensive midfielder, is to know when to stick and when to twist. When to press and when to hold. Split second decisions that are vital to everything the team does defensively. Dier is absolutely abysmal at this. He cannot make quick decisions as live play changes in front of him. He can though, as you've said, stand near the attacking full backs position as they go forward, a very simple and drilled task. 

That is without mentioning how generally poor Dier is on the ball. He is a wanderer on the pitch, both in mind and body. For a lad that covers defensive positions it is amazing how often he is at fault for goals by being out of position. I don't need Pochettino to pick him to tell me that that's not happening. It's blatantly obvious how many goals have been Diers fault in the past couple of years. Have you not seen these? 

It's funny because you have now written comment after comment about Dier, but you're barely given a positive trait of him as a footballer. In fact I've probably given more. Tbh I don't blame you, Dier has very few positive traits, and just because Pochettino regularly selects him doesn't make mistakes Dier has made disappear, or not to have never happened.
"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Huntacha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 4:43am
Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

 I mean it's just utter guff you are spouting. As I've said numerous times, Dier obviously has positive traits. His physical presence being his biggest plus imo. The fact that Pochettino trusts him is a lot to do with the fact he is rarely unavailable due to injury/niggles I presume, unlike a lot of Spurs other midfielders in the past 2/3 years. It cannot be underestimated how important that is to a football manager.

Your condescending tone would be pathetic if it wasn't so laughable when it comes to all things Dier. You make out as if him covering an attacking full back is an incredibly difficult role. The difficult part in midfield play, especially as a more defensive midfielder, is to know when to stick and when to twist. When to press and when to hold. Split second decisions that are vital to everything the team does defensively. Dier is absolutely abysmal at this. He cannot make quick decisions as live play changes in front of him. He can though, as you've said, stand near the attacking full backs position as they go forward, a very simple and drilled task. 

That is without mentioning how generally poor Dier is on the ball. He is a wanderer on the pitch, both in mind and body. For a lad that covers defensive positions it is amazing how often he is at fault for goals by being out of position. I don't need Pochettino to pick him to tell me that that's not happening. It's blatantly obvious how many goals have been Diers fault in the past couple of years. Have you not seen these? 

It's funny because you have now written comment after comment about Dier, but you're barely given a positive trait of him as a footballer. In fact I've probably given more. Tbh I don't blame you, Dier has very few positive traits, and just because Pochettino regularly selects him doesn't make mistakes Dier has made disappear, or not to have never happened.

I don't rate Dier at all, but to be fair, the last thing I'd want from him is pressing, given his role in shielding the CB's and filling in for the full backs when they're out of position. 

His ability, or lack thereof, on the ball was highlighted against Juve last year. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Moleman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 12:49pm
But that's the actual poorest thing about Dier. He does press lots of times, when he most definitely shouldn't. Then leaving gaping holes in front of the defence. He doesn't know when to stick or twist in that regard, an awful decision maker. Wanyama is miles and miles ahead of him in these scenarios reading the play defensively.

As you've said his passing. Jaysus. No need to even get started there.
"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 6:56pm
Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

It's funny because you have now written comment after comment about Dier, but you're barely given a positive trait of him as a footballer. 
You're the one making the extravagant claims, you're the one who has to justify them. And merely repeating the same old claims does not constitute "justification", namely:

"simply abysmal", "one of the poorest, dumbest footballers I've ever seen play at such a high level", "absolutely appalling", "abysmal", "an awful player", "a glaring weak spot", "wanders aimlessly", "horrendous mistakes", "wanders", "daydreams", "not smart enough", "absolutely abysmal", "often at fault"...

The only conclusion to be drawn from that is that he's simply not up to playing in the EPL, never mind for a top three team or England.

Yet the facts are, Dier has already played 23 times this season, 60 games last season, 56 the season before, 62 the season before that and 36 before that (his breakthrough season, aged 20).

Which means Hodgson, Southgate and Poch (esp), who work with him day-in, day-out, are incapable of seeing what is "glaringly obvious" to you, and insist on picking the player regardless.

Yeah, that must be it.

Perhaps you should email them, I'm sure they'd love to receive the benefit of your wisdom.


Edited by Territorial - 10 Dec 2018 at 6:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 7:57pm
Now done some more research to refresh my memory.

In season 2014/15, Dier's first in the team (under newly appointed Pochettino), he played most of his 32 games at RB and the rest at CB, while Poch juggled Kaboul, Stambouli and Fazio in the two CB positions.
Spurs conceded 53 goals that season, the joint 14th worst in the EPL.

By the following season, Poch sold the first two and loaned out Fazio, signing Alderweireld from Saints. Significantly, he kept Dier, but moved him to DM for 2015/16. That season Spurs conceded 35 goals: joint 1st in the division. Dier played 62 games, incl 37 in the EPL.

The following season (2016/17), Spurs conceded just 26 EPL goals: the divisions tightest defence. Dier played 56 games, incl 36 in the EPL.

In 2017/18, Spurs conceded 36 EPL goals, 3rd fewest in the League, while Dier played 34 times (60 in total).

Now I'm not saying that Dier was the reason for that transformation (I leave the wild claims to others). Clearly the primary factor was Pochettino's work on the training ground, plus the recruitment of Alderweireld to play alongside Vertongen at CB - arguably the best combination in the EPL.

Which brings us round to Dier, who has been Poch's "go-to player" in DM. And even if you don't think he made that much of a difference, it is crazy to think that he is such a glaring liability as some on here have been claiming.

For were that to be the case, then you can be damned sure the other managers in the EPL will also have seen it, and targeted* Dier as a weak link.

Yet that clearly hasn't been happening in reality, otherwise Spurs would start leaking goals and/or Poch would take decisive steps to correct it.

Instead he just keeps picking him, while Spurs have made their best League start in years.

But hey ho, the armchair experts, with their coaching certificates from the local pub TV, tell us differently, so it must be true.


* - In the same way eg Kane and Alli targeted Jorginho when Spurs walloped them a couple of weeks back. (And I'm not saying Jorginho is a bad player - far from it - but he was still horribly exposed, even in an otherwise decent team like Chelsea)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberto Baggio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 7:59pm
Good debate 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 7:59pm
Terri likes to argue that much he's now arguing with himself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 8:03pm
Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

Terri likes to argue that much he's now arguing with himself.
LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberto Baggio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 8:04pm
LOLLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 10:06pm
Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

Terri likes to argue that much he's now arguing with himself.
Yeah, well arguing with you is no challenge, that's for sure! LOL

But I'm a reasonable man, so I'll indulge you once more and ask: where have I contradicted myself?

P.S. No hurry btw - no doubt you're busy preparing an irrefutable, evidence-based fact file to back up your assertions that Sissoko is "lazy" and Dier is "sh*te". Yeah, that'll be it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 10:18pm
I'm not convinced you're a reasonable man, a reasonable man doesn't argue with himself let's get that straight Thumbs Up

And a reasonable man would tell the thread why you think Dier is a good player without arguing with yourself or posting some irrelevant stats regarding appearances, what I'm trying to say is... Just answer the f**king question LOL
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