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Luis Amor Rodriguez 
Liam Brady
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 Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 8:15pm |
 Conan wrote:
We've benefited from FIFA's eligibility rules more than any other country in history and milked the granny rule for all its worth. All the players in the England squad with Irish heritage are there because they'd rather play for England. The ones end up with us are the ones not good enough for them, its always been that way and all it will be. Ye there will forever be people bleating that the FAI and whatever manager isn't doing enough because players don't want to play for us over England.Nobody on here was saying Rice should be in our team against Moldova, because he hadn't really made the breakthrough at West Ham at the time yet acting as if he should have been. He turned out for us in the matches he did, knowing he could switch at any time. |
That's wrong too - I was at the Gibraltar game in 2014 and was wondering why we weren't calling up young guns like Grealish, and similarly Moldova - Rice had 5 PL appearances at that stage. If I was thinking it in the cheap seats, someone else should have been too. Build for the future in those games when you have a chance.
The point is, some players may instinctively at a young age want to play for their country of birth, England say, but if given a senior opportunity and genuinely involved by their ancestral country, they may commit to that early and never look back - regardless of their ceiling.
There are countless examples - I'll name 3 recent Welsh ones to make the point:
- Ampadu, English lad with Irish Dad who committed to Wales at a time when he looked like he had a massive ceiling (Chelsea had bought him, youngest ever player for Exeter), could still be a very good player. - Daniel James - Hull lad as English as they come - committed to Wales despite huge ceiling - which manifested itself in £30 odd million move to Man U and champions league football - and Matondo from Liverpool, similar early move to Champions League Schalke, but committed to Wales because they got him involved.
There are literally tens of others I can think of off the top of my head, especially by Norn Iron recently, USA, loads of the African countries etc. All of the above, at the time of committing to Wales, looked like they had a very high ceiling (higher than say Rice at the same age) and international football at senior level was a no-brainer.
Possibly the best example is Scott McTominay, English mum, born and raised in England. At 19 said he didn't want to be considered for Scottish squads for a while ("wanted to concentrate on first-team football"). Alex McLeish visited him personally in horrible weather, made a clear case for the senior squad, and he stuck with Scotland (the country of his Dad's birth).
McTominay's a good example because if he stayed with England, he'd be good enough to have a stack of caps by now - not quite Rice level, but would be ahead of Kalvin Phillips (also Irish-eligible but never given the attention at senior level by Ireland that McTominay was given by Scotland, despite playing regularly in the Championship - long before anyone could envisage England coming knocking).
Point is - if they're eligible and playing first team, get them involved at senior level early.
That's what nearly every rival around our level, and many, far, far above, are doing.
Prior to the Moldova home game - which we won handy - Rice had played 5 PL games for West Ham - that should be alarm bells for getting him in. I've very little doubt if we did, in the context as it was then, he would have been delighted to be capped and would be as committed to us as he has been in his amazing performances for England.
There was a while there that Smallbone looked like he could outrageous and England would be knocking - he looks now more like he could be just a solid pro - but there was no effort to get him in at senior level. Same can be said for Hodge, who has a very ceiling which is obvious to anyone who's been watching him play since he was 16. Why is Jeff playing against Malta or Armenia and not Hodge?
If Smallbone or Hodge did a Grealish-Liverpool-FA-cup-Semi job or excel like Rice and England did come, we probably would have lost him.
We should
1. protect ourselves from that risk and 2. look to get lads involved at senior level early when they'll be flattered and interested in the opportunity - and once they're involved, they're just as committed as the Ireland-born lads, like Ampadu, James and Matondo are - or Townsend, Aldridge, Houghton and Sheridan all were.
We could have an outrageous team if we could get our act together with our diaspora . . .
Like we had before - when, coincidentally, we did have our act together with the diaspora - and no, not just parent links, but loads of grandparent links.
And, aside from our own rapidly-fading garlanded past, we don't have to look very far for examples of how to do it.
Edited by Luis Amor Rodriguez - 11 Dec 2022 at 9:25pm
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Nialler
Liam Brady
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Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 9:43pm |
The O'Shea wrote:
The Huntacha wrote:
I can't see many young players out on loan from a PL club declaring for a country they weren't born in. They're too clued about how it works these days and I'd imagine their agents and parent clubs would actively discourage them from doing it as it would impact their value/potential earnings. That means we'd only have a chance of getting them into our set-up (if they haven't already been) when they're in their mid-20's and have many players ahead of them.
The make-up of Morocco's squad is a generational thing but it's also a cultural/religious thing. It's a lot harder for Arabs/Muslims to assimilate to a European country, especially one in which they will experience racism on a regular basis. So it's no surprise that the like of Hakimi or Bono declared for them, even if the Moroccan federation aggressively pursued them. |
That might sound intuitively correct, but I'm not sure it stands up to scrutiny. There are plenty of Muslims who line out for Spain/France/Belgium/Holland/Germany etc which is where these players come from mostly, it's only in recent years though that Morocco have been really successfully in attracting players that are good enough to represent their birth countries to represent them instead. It's hard to view that as anything other than a concerted effort on he part of the Moroccan federation.
It also fails to explain why countries likes Wales and Canada have had great success with dual eligible players - in Wales case there's no great anti-Welsh prejudice in England which would explain why people of Welsh ancestry would cling more closely to that than usual. In Canada's case basically all of their players are from an immigrant background and eligible for different nations, you would expect that stark cultural differences might lead them to favour their parents countries, but in recent times virtually none of them have.
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Morocco actually spent a fortune on facilities. Their facility built for these players was like 100-200 million Irish infrastructure is 3rd world level. Fact is as a society we really don't have the passion for football some think we do. Match that with a ridiculous level of corruption bettered only by African states and the lack of success comes as little surprise. we invest pennies and we expect pounds.
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ripbomb
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Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 10:22pm |
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Here in Ireland we invest millions after millions in a sport that that there participants in cannot represent or ever espire to our country in . Was watching the athletics this morning and seeing how brilliant they did versus huge European populations just got me wondering if our best sportspeople weren't soo thrilled at been "the small town hero" every so often we could be the new Croatia. Similar population... first sport football but lot of high class athletes in various sports
Edited by ripbomb - 11 Dec 2022 at 10:23pm
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zizu Kilbane
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Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 10:35pm |
ripbomb wrote:
Here in Ireland we invest millions after millions in a sport that that there participants in cannot represent or ever espire to our country in . Was watching the athletics this morning and seeing how brilliant they did versus huge European populations just got me wondering if our best sportspeople weren't soo thrilled at been "the small town hero" every so often we could be the new Croatia. Similar population... first sport football but lot of high class athletes in various sports
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From an infrastructure point of view, across multiple sports, we are miles behind most other developed countries. Greyhound and Horse racing gets a disproportionate amount of state funding, most of which in turn ends up as prize money. That is wrong on many levels, the biggest being that those sports aren't accessible to the masses.
Even the sport that we disproportionately excell at the most on a global stage...boxing...is massive underfunded. Clubs closing down due to lack of governmental support etc.
One thing for certain, this won't change under a Fine Gael government.
I also note the thinly veiled shot at the GAA in your post. The reality is that the GAA provides a social capital in this country that is incalculable. Not every person who plays sport does it with the ambition of competing on a global stage. However those that do in their chosen sport should be supported better than they are
Edited by zizu Kilbane - 11 Dec 2022 at 10:38pm
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"Sometimes, sh*t happens, someone's gotta deal with it, and who ya gonna call?"
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Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 10:45pm |
zizu Kilbane wrote:
One thing for certain, this won't change under a Fine Gael government.
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A Fine Gael led Government headed up a government that agreed a massive rescue package to the FAI.
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Trap junior
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Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 10:46pm |
zizu Kilbane wrote:
ripbomb wrote:
Here in Ireland we invest millions after millions in a sport that that there participants in cannot represent or ever espire to our country in . Was watching the athletics this morning and seeing how brilliant they did versus huge European populations just got me wondering if our best sportspeople weren't soo thrilled at been "the small town hero" every so often we could be the new Croatia. Similar population... first sport football but lot of high class athletes in various sports
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From an infrastructure point of view, across multiple sports, we are miles behind most other developed countries. Greyhound and Horse racing gets a disproportionate amount of state funding, most of which in turn ends up as prize money. That is wrong on many levels, the biggest being that those sports aren't accessible to the masses.
Even the sport that we disproportionately excell at the most on a global stage...boxing...is massive underfunded. Clubs closing down due to lack of governmental support etc.
One thing for certain, this won't change under a Fine Gael government.
I also note the thinly veiled shot at the GAA in your post. The reality is that the GAA provides a social capital in this country that is incalculable. Not every person who plays sport does it with the ambition of competing on a global stage. However those that do in their chosen sport should be supported better than they are
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The GAA and the IRFU are in the rural area schools and in the ears of kids and promoting their sports. They have Cul camps and other camps for these sports and encourage the kids with kits and ''freebies'' etc.. Meanwhile the FAI are nowhere to be seen.
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Pied Piper to: Baldrick, Brendan 88, 9Fingers, Borussia and more...
97.6% chance this post will be replied to by Baldrick (source: PWC)
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Territorial
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Posted: 12 Dec 2022 at 12:00am |
Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:
There are countless examples - I'll name 3 recent Welsh ones to make the point:
- Ampadu, English lad with Irish Dad who committed to Wales at a time when he looked like he had a massive ceiling (Chelsea had bought him, youngest ever player for Exeter), could still be a very good player. - Daniel James - Hull lad as English as they come - committed to Wales despite huge ceiling - which manifested itself in £30 odd million move to Man U and champions league football - and Matondo from Liverpool, similar early move to Champions League Schalke, but committed to Wales because they got him involved.
Point is - if they're eligible and playing first team, get them involved at senior level early.
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Can't talk about other countries, but people who think Wales simply cap (and tie) young dual nationals just as soon as they can, are under a big misapprehension.
For under Oisin Roberts, who held several positions at the FAW including Technical Director, they refined their Youth Development with great success. And part of this involved actively encouraging Anglo-Welsh kids to take up any invitation they got to attend England training camps. This is because Roberts understood that when they got there, they would see that there were maybe five other equally good kids in their position, all trying to catch the coaches' eye.
And with the odds clearly against them, they would come back to Wales, where they would get individual attention and their own career development plan mapped out for them. Add to this a real commitment to top qiality coaching, plus improved facilities, and many (most?) youngsters concluded they were better off with Wales.
Theres more about Roberts in this 2017 profile below, including this interesting snippet: “My challenge is to develop better players and more of them for the
national team,” said Roberts. “How we do that is tied to educating
coaches so they develop better players. “The facilities in Wales
are well behind our neighbours. I took a Wales youth side to Ireland a
few months ago and their facilities are far better than anything we’ve
got in Wales. “It’s a medium-term plan rather than short-term because having 12 Welsh players in the English Premiership isn’t enough. https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/osians-football-power-wales-2245679
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drog addict
Jack Charlton
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Posted: 12 Dec 2022 at 12:24am |
Trap junior wrote:
zizu Kilbane wrote:
ripbomb wrote:
Here in Ireland we invest millions after millions in a sport that that there participants in cannot represent or ever espire to our country in . Was watching the athletics this morning and seeing how brilliant they did versus huge European populations just got me wondering if our best sportspeople weren't soo thrilled at been "the small town hero" every so often we could be the new Croatia. Similar population... first sport football but lot of high class athletes in various sports
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From an infrastructure point of view, across multiple sports, we are miles behind most other developed countries. Greyhound and Horse racing gets a disproportionate amount of state funding, most of which in turn ends up as prize money. That is wrong on many levels, the biggest being that those sports aren't accessible to the masses.
Even the sport that we disproportionately excell at the most on a global stage...boxing...is massive underfunded. Clubs closing down due to lack of governmental support etc.
One thing for certain, this won't change under a Fine Gael government.
I also note the thinly veiled shot at the GAA in your post. The reality is that the GAA provides a social capital in this country that is incalculable. Not every person who plays sport does it with the ambition of competing on a global stage. However those that do in their chosen sport should be supported better than they are
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The GAA and the IRFU are in the rural area schools and in the ears of kids and promoting their sports. They have Cul camps and other camps for these sports and encourage the kids with kits and ''freebies'' etc.. Meanwhile the FAI are nowhere to be seen.
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The fai do summer camps all over the country with kits and freebies
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Chips don't bounce
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Luis Amor Rodriguez
Liam Brady
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Posted: 12 Dec 2022 at 12:52am |
Territorial wrote:
Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:
There are countless examples - I'll name 3 recent Welsh ones to make the point:
- Ampadu, English lad with Irish Dad who committed to Wales at a time when he looked like he had a massive ceiling (Chelsea had bought him, youngest ever player for Exeter), could still be a very good player. - Daniel James - Hull lad as English as they come - committed to Wales despite huge ceiling - which manifested itself in £30 odd million move to Man U and champions league football - and Matondo from Liverpool, similar early move to Champions League Schalke, but committed to Wales because they got him involved.
Point is - if they're eligible and playing first team, get them involved at senior level early.
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Can't talk about other countries, but people who think Wales simply cap (and tie) young dual nationals just as soon as they can, are under a big misapprehension.
For under Oisin Roberts, who held several positions at the FAW including Technical Director, they refined their Youth Development with great success. And part of this involved actively encouraging Anglo-Welsh kids to take up any invitation they got to attend England training camps. This is because Roberts understood that when they got there, they would see that there were maybe five other equally good kids in their position, all trying to catch the coaches' eye.
And with the odds clearly against them, they would come back to Wales, where they would get individual attention and their own career development plan mapped out for them. Add to this a real commitment to top qiality coaching, plus improved facilities, and many (most?) youngsters concluded they were better off with Wales.
Theres more about Roberts in this 2017 profile below, including this interesting snippet: “My challenge is to develop better players and more of them for the
national team,” said Roberts. “How we do that is tied to educating
coaches so they develop better players. “The facilities in Wales
are well behind our neighbours. I took a Wales youth side to Ireland a
few months ago and their facilities are far better than anything we’ve
got in Wales. “It’s a medium-term plan rather than short-term because having 12 Welsh players in the English Premiership isn’t enough. https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/osians-football-power-wales-2245679
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In fairness, Wales had a fair few teenagers, who had not made senior club debuts, who they capped competitively in the last 30 seconds of extra-time - with the effect (before the rules changed) of tying them down.
Harry Wilson when he was playing in the Liverpool Academy is one such player who comes to mind - think he got 30 seconds. But there are many others.
It's clearly been a deliberate strategy for them to expand their playing pool. And it's worked.
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Borussia
Roy Keane
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Posted: 12 Dec 2022 at 10:34am |
Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:
Territorial wrote:
Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:
There are countless examples - I'll name 3 recent Welsh ones to make the point:
- Ampadu, English lad with Irish Dad who committed to Wales at a time when he looked like he had a massive ceiling (Chelsea had bought him, youngest ever player for Exeter), could still be a very good player. - Daniel James - Hull lad as English as they come - committed to Wales despite huge ceiling - which manifested itself in £30 odd million move to Man U and champions league football - and Matondo from Liverpool, similar early move to Champions League Schalke, but committed to Wales because they got him involved.
Point is - if they're eligible and playing first team, get them involved at senior level early.
|
Can't talk about other countries, but people who think Wales simply cap (and tie) young dual nationals just as soon as they can, are under a big misapprehension.
For under Oisin Roberts, who held several positions at the FAW including Technical Director, they refined their Youth Development with great success. And part of this involved actively encouraging Anglo-Welsh kids to take up any invitation they got to attend England training camps. This is because Roberts understood that when they got there, they would see that there were maybe five other equally good kids in their position, all trying to catch the coaches' eye.
And with the odds clearly against them, they would come back to Wales, where they would get individual attention and their own career development plan mapped out for them. Add to this a real commitment to top qiality coaching, plus improved facilities, and many (most?) youngsters concluded they were better off with Wales.
Theres more about Roberts in this 2017 profile below, including this interesting snippet: “My challenge is to develop better players and more of them for the
national team,” said Roberts. “How we do that is tied to educating
coaches so they develop better players. “The facilities in Wales
are well behind our neighbours. I took a Wales youth side to Ireland a
few months ago and their facilities are far better than anything we’ve
got in Wales. “It’s a medium-term plan rather than short-term because having 12 Welsh players in the English Premiership isn’t enough. https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/osians-football-power-wales-2245679
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In fairness, Wales had a fair few teenagers, who had not made senior club debuts, who they capped competitively in the last 30 seconds of extra-time - with the effect (before the rules changed) of tying them down.
Harry Wilson when he was playing in the Liverpool Academy is one such player who comes to mind - think he got 30 seconds. But there are many others.
It's clearly been a deliberate strategy for them to expand their playing pool. And it's worked.
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Harry Wilson is from Wrexham.
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zizu Kilbane
Jack Charlton
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Posted: 12 Dec 2022 at 11:19am |
The facilities in Wales are well behind our neighbours. I took a Wales youth side to Ireland a few months ago and their facilities are far better than anything we’ve got in Wales.
I would have to disagree with this. Wales have had 2 teams in the Premier league in recent years, with academies that are miles ahead of anything on this island, either side of the border. The Hollywood money being pumped into the Wrexham is likely going to make that 3 academies in the coming years
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"Sometimes, sh*t happens, someone's gotta deal with it, and who ya gonna call?"
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kevin100
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Posted: 12 Dec 2022 at 12:00pm |
Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:
Conan wrote:
We've benefited from FIFA's eligibility rules more than any other country in history and milked the granny rule for all its worth. All the players in the England squad with Irish heritage are there because they'd rather play for England. The ones end up with us are the ones not good enough for them, its always been that way and all it will be. Ye there will forever be people bleating that the FAI and whatever manager isn't doing enough because players don't want to play for us over England.Nobody on here was saying Rice should be in our team against Moldova, because he hadn't really made the breakthrough at West Ham at the time yet acting as if he should have been. He turned out for us in the matches he did, knowing he could switch at any time. |
That's wrong too - I was at the Gibraltar game in 2014 and was wondering why we weren't calling up young guns like Grealish, and similarly Moldova - Rice had 5 PL appearances at that stage. If I was thinking it in the cheap seats, someone else should have been too. Build for the future in those games when you have a chance.
The point is, some players may instinctively at a young age want to play for their country of birth, England say, but if given a senior opportunity and genuinely involved by their ancestral country, they may commit to that early and never look back - regardless of their ceiling.
There are countless examples - I'll name 3 recent Welsh ones to make the point:
- Ampadu, English lad with Irish Dad who committed to Wales at a time when he looked like he had a massive ceiling (Chelsea had bought him, youngest ever player for Exeter), could still be a very good player. - Daniel James - Hull lad as English as they come - committed to Wales despite huge ceiling - which manifested itself in £30 odd million move to Man U and champions league football - and Matondo from Liverpool, similar early move to Champions League Schalke, but committed to Wales because they got him involved.
There are literally tens of others I can think of off the top of my head, especially by Norn Iron recently, USA, loads of the African countries etc. All of the above, at the time of committing to Wales, looked like they had a very high ceiling (higher than say Rice at the same age) and international football at senior level was a no-brainer.
Possibly the best example is Scott McTominay, English mum, born and raised in England. At 19 said he didn't want to be considered for Scottish squads for a while ("wanted to concentrate on first-team football"). Alex McLeish visited him personally in horrible weather, made a clear case for the senior squad, and he stuck with Scotland (the country of his Dad's birth).
McTominay's a good example because if he stayed with England, he'd be good enough to have a stack of caps by now - not quite Rice level, but would be ahead of Kalvin Phillips (also Irish-eligible but never given the attention at senior level by Ireland that McTominay was given by Scotland, despite playing regularly in the Championship - long before anyone could envisage England coming knocking).
Point is - if they're eligible and playing first team, get them involved at senior level early.
That's what nearly every rival around our level, and many, far, far above, are doing.
Prior to the Moldova home game - which we won handy - Rice had played 5 PL games for West Ham - that should be alarm bells for getting him in. I've very little doubt if we did, in the context as it was then, he would have been delighted to be capped and would be as committed to us as he has been in his amazing performances for England.
There was a while there that Smallbone looked like he could outrageous and England would be knocking - he looks now more like he could be just a solid pro - but there was no effort to get him in at senior level. Same can be said for Hodge, who has a very ceiling which is obvious to anyone who's been watching him play since he was 16. Why is Jeff playing against Malta or Armenia and not Hodge?
If Smallbone or Hodge did a Grealish-Liverpool-FA-cup-Semi job or excel like Rice and England did come, we probably would have lost him.
We should
1. protect ourselves from that risk and 2. look to get lads involved at senior level early when they'll be flattered and interested in the opportunity - and once they're involved, they're just as committed as the Ireland-born lads, like Ampadu, James and Matondo are - or Townsend, Aldridge, Houghton and Sheridan all were.
We could have an outrageous team if we could get our act together with our diaspora . . .
Like we had before - when, coincidentally, we did have our act together with the diaspora - and no, not just parent links, but loads of grandparent links.
And, aside from our own rapidly-fading garlanded past, we don't have to look very far for examples of how to do it.
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This and this only! Literally factual information regarding how it can be done correctly and why we are atrocious at it yet you will still get lads replying arguing against literal facts! We here on a macro level seem to have zero ability to use some good old fashioned foresight like the Welsh are exceptional at doing!
No one is saying cap everything that moves but in certain cases Hodge being another it doesn’t take a genius to see that he’s a talented player and no sign of him in the last squad Smallbone not brought on! Just lads who we know about who hadn’t much interest being there (pointless friendly at a weird period).
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Fruice
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Posted: 12 Dec 2022 at 12:03pm |
Trap junior wrote:
zizu Kilbane wrote:
ripbomb wrote:
Here in Ireland we invest millions after millions in a sport that that there participants in cannot represent or ever espire to our country in . Was watching the athletics this morning and seeing how brilliant they did versus huge European populations just got me wondering if our best sportspeople weren't soo thrilled at been "the small town hero" every so often we could be the new Croatia. Similar population... first sport football but lot of high class athletes in various sports
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From an infrastructure point of view, across multiple sports, we are miles behind most other developed countries. Greyhound and Horse racing gets a disproportionate amount of state funding, most of which in turn ends up as prize money. That is wrong on many levels, the biggest being that those sports aren't accessible to the masses.
Even the sport that we disproportionately excell at the most on a global stage...boxing...is massive underfunded. Clubs closing down due to lack of governmental support etc.
One thing for certain, this won't change under a Fine Gael government.
I also note the thinly veiled shot at the GAA in your post. The reality is that the GAA provides a social capital in this country that is incalculable. Not every person who plays sport does it with the ambition of competing on a global stage. However those that do in their chosen sport should be supported better than they are
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The GAA and the IRFU are in the rural area schools and in the ears of kids and promoting their sports. They have Cul camps and other camps for these sports and encourage the kids with kits and ''freebies'' etc.. Meanwhile the FAI are nowhere to be seen.
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What about the FAI Summer Soccer Schools?
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Fruice
Liam Brady
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Posted: 12 Dec 2022 at 12:08pm |
zizu Kilbane wrote:
ripbomb wrote:
Here in Ireland we invest millions after millions in a sport that that there participants in cannot represent or ever espire to our country in . Was watching the athletics this morning and seeing how brilliant they did versus huge European populations just got me wondering if our best sportspeople weren't soo thrilled at been "the small town hero" every so often we could be the new Croatia. Similar population... first sport football but lot of high class athletes in various sports
|
From an infrastructure point of view, across multiple sports, we are miles behind most other developed countries. Greyhound and Horse racing gets a disproportionate amount of state funding, most of which in turn ends up as prize money. That is wrong on many levels, the biggest being that those sports aren't accessible to the masses.
Even the sport that we disproportionately excell at the most on a global stage...boxing...is massive underfunded. Clubs closing down due to lack of governmental support etc.
One thing for certain, this won't change under a Fine Gael government.
I also note the thinly veiled shot at the GAA in your post. The reality is that the GAA provides a social capital in this country that is incalculable. Not every person who plays sport does it with the ambition of competing on a global stage. However those that do in their chosen sport should be supported better than they are
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A lot of the soccer clubs are miles behind and it’s the clubs own fault or they aren’t around as long as the GAA clubs and are playing catch-up.
There is loads of money out there to be got in funding you just need to know how to get it.
There is work involved but not huge amounts and secondly there is alot of good work happening out there at the grass roots level in 1 0 years time I think this conversation will be much more balanced financially across Rugby, Soccer and GAA
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Territorial
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Posted: 12 Dec 2022 at 1:10pm |
Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:
In fairness, Wales had a fair few teenagers, who had not made senior club debuts, who they capped competitively in the last 30 seconds of extra-time - with the effect (before the rules changed) of tying them down.
Harry Wilson when he was playing in the Liverpool Academy is one such player who comes to mind - think he got 30 seconds. But there are many others. |
Leaving aside the fact that Wilson is Wrexham-born and went to schoool there (thank you Borussia), players like him invariably have agents and advisers who will warn them against falling for a transparent ruse like you suggest. Moreover, if their club sees that one of their top young prospects is making a move which is not in his best interests, and therefore the club's, they too will have a word.
If anything, these days it is the players who are "gaming the system", not the Associations - see eg Jack Grealish!
Oh and btw, one of the reasons why these youngsters only get a few minutes at the end of a game for their debut is because they simply aren't good enough to start the game - it's how you introduce young players to international football, which is why nobody comments about this when it involves a youngster who is not a dual national.
Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:
It's clearly been a deliberate strategy for them to expand their playing pool. And it's worked. |
But it's really not just a case of someone at the FAW saying to Robert Page: "Here's a good young kid, can you make sure he gets five minutes in our next qualifier before England get him?"
Often the FAW's coaches are working with these youngsters from a very young age, to persuade them that Wales can offer a better long-term career plan than England, where even a huge talent like eg James Maddison is waiting for his second cap at the age of 26.
Edited by Territorial - 12 Dec 2022 at 1:17pm
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Luis Amor Rodriguez
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Posted: 12 Dec 2022 at 1:23pm |
[/QUOTE]
Harry Wilson is from Wrexham. [/QUOTE]
I don't have the lad's full biographical information to hand, but he was eligible for England, moved to England before he was 9, clearly lived there for a lot of his life. In any event, England were very keen on him. (Indeed, most of the other teenagers are England born, e.g.: Matondo, James, Brennan Johnson, Tyler Roberts, Ampadu, huge list - countless examples, so no need to focus on this one, even if you disagree).
However, as to Wilson, Coleman capped Wilson at 16 years old or something for 30 seconds (years before making a senior club debut), and a big deal was made at the time about it being something that would tie him down and ward off England's advances.
It was controversial at the time with his club manager Brendan Rodgers and, separately new international teammate Craig Bellamy saying he wasn't ready.
There were loads of articles about it - here's an excerpt from the Daily Mail for example
"Not wishing to take a chance, Wilson was handed a cap during a competitive fixture, ruling out any chance that he could swap his nationality later on in his career.To that end, he was fast-tracked into Coleman’s senior squad despite never having played for the Under 21s — unlike Bale, who had collected a handful of caps. The case has echoes of England’s alleged pursuit of Manchester United’s Adnan Januzaj, who has still to decide which of five possible countries he wants to represent. When asked, Bellamy was clearly in two minds about whether it was right for Wilson to have been thrust into this situation.
‘I’m not sure about it,’ said the 34-year-old, who is the third most highly capped player in his country’s history, ‘I really don’t know. ‘I think Harry’s a talent. I think he’s going to do well in the years to come. But I’d like to see him do well first (before being capped). ‘I don’t mean that in a bad way, but 16 years old is young, it’s really young.‘He can’t play for anyone else now but is that really the most important thing?"
Edited by Luis Amor Rodriguez - 12 Dec 2022 at 1:28pm
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Territorial
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Posted: 12 Dec 2022 at 1:24pm |
zizu Kilbane wrote:
The facilities in Wales are well behind our neighbours. I took a Wales youth side to Ireland a few months ago and their facilities are far better than anything we’ve got in Wales.
I would have to disagree with this. Wales have had 2 teams in the Premier league in recent years, with academies that are miles ahead of anything on this island, either side of the border. The Hollywood money being pumped into the Wrexham is likely going to make that 3 academies in the coming years |
Roberts was comparing the FAW with the FAI.
Cardiff and Swansea are proifessional set-ups whose sole priority is to produce players for themselves - when it comes to it, they don't give a damn whether their Academy is full of players who originate in Wales, England or Mongolia.
In fact if anything, they wold probably prefer that a dual national opted for England over Wales, since that should increase his transfer value.
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Territorial
Jack Charlton
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Posted: 12 Dec 2022 at 2:00pm |
Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:
Borussia wrote:
Harry Wilson is from Wrexham. |
I don't have the lad's full biographical information to hand, but he was eligible for England, moved to England before he was 9, clearly lived there for a lot of his life.
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https://theathletic.com/3347921/2022/06/05/harry-wilson-wales-world-cup/
As the above article from The Athletic (paywall) points out, Wilson did not "move to England before he was nine". He went to school - primary and secondary - in Wales and travelled to Liverpool's Academy from home - initially to LFC's satellite academy in Chester (20 miles away?)
Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:
In any event,
England were very keen on him.
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Of course they were. And who knows, he might well have got several under-age caps for them. But the simple fact is, he has now got 42 caps for Wales and has played in a World Cup Finals. How many senior England caps do you imagine he would have by now, had he opted for them? (I'm gurssing none, btw).
The fact is, if there was any "poaching" involved, it was by England, for Wilson and his whole family are as Welsh as Max Boyce!
Or as The Athletic put it: "Wilson could have represented England at national team level. His grandmother, Jen, was born in Chester — by
chance more than anything — but representing a different country to the
one of his birth was never likely to be on the cards. Wilson is a
Welshman and you only have to speak to his uncle Ian Evans, to know that.
Edited by Territorial - 12 Dec 2022 at 2:05pm
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