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Ray Houghton
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Points: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2020 at 9:41pm
I agree that we shouldn't look to just tie down dual nationality players for the sake of it but equally I would like to see some dual nationality players not use irelands underage system as a stepping stone for their own career with no intention of playing for us long term.

Grealish and Rice as a case in point but would be good to see players like hodge have ambitions of staying with us long term
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Jack Charlton
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Originally posted by J89 J89 wrote:

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Marcus McGuane isn't eligible for us anymore.

Crowley doesn't seem to fit into Karanka's game plan at Birmingham so not getting any games at the moment.

Does the new rule changes that were made in September make any difference to his eligibility, or is he still unavailable. Either way he's a squad player for Oxford, who are fourth from bottom in league one, even Jack Taylor would be ahead of him. If he was eligible for us would he even start for our U21s?

He might have been useful to have around for the end of the under 21 campaign when we lost so many players to the senior squad. He'd be overage for our next campaign. But anyway the new rules don't make him eligible, he has used up his switch and can only play for England now. England C might be his best bet from here.
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Ray Houghton
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Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Marcus McGuane isn't eligible for us anymore.

Crowley doesn't seem to fit into Karanka's game plan at Birmingham so not getting any games at the moment.

I could definitely be wrong on this, but won’t Crowley, McGuane, et al become eligible for us at the point when they haven’t played for England for 4 years? For Crowley, that’s now. For McGuane I think it’s 2022.

O’Hare and Wilmot are definitely eligible for us 
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Liam Brady
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Originally posted by Newryrep Newryrep wrote:

Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

Originally posted by Newryrep Newryrep wrote:

Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

when you see where we are now it’s clear we have to change our philosophy around granny rulers.losing grealish will go down as one of our biggest mistakes in relation to this rule.
We need to be selfish about it and cap them young and take decisions out of lads heads.
But it is much easier for the likes of England to turn players head.
And at the moment they can’t be much worse than what’s available to us. 
 
Yes , yes we should,  like maybe try and put in a system that develops players ourselves ???
 
No fuking way should we be capping players just to tie them to us
And why not some of them are already in our systems anyway just need to get them on board before it’s too late.
It’s clear our systems in place will only get us so far we have a limited playing pool.
Why not use every avenue that’s open to us there is nothing illegal in what we are doing.

Because our country is better than that - that being dishing out caps just to tie people to us , if people want to play for us and are eligible great  - welcome aboard , if they don't then - move on
 
I would hate to see us trying to tie down dual nationals just for the sake of it , its not right whether its legal or not
Clearly they do want to play for us but their heads get turned and they end up playing with some other country which may be more beneficial to them.

Ultimately if take the high moral ground it will
cost us in the long run.
Beggars can’t be choosers.

We produce very little in our leagues so we depend on other countries to put the real time in developing our lads so to say we are better than that is only a token gesture most of the work going into to Irish players is done in a foreign country.
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Jack Charlton
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Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

Originally posted by Newryrep Newryrep wrote:

Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

Originally posted by Newryrep Newryrep wrote:

Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

when you see where we are now it’s clear we have to change our philosophy around granny rulers.losing grealish will go down as one of our biggest mistakes in relation to this rule.
We need to be selfish about it and cap them young and take decisions out of lads heads.
But it is much easier for the likes of England to turn players head.
And at the moment they can’t be much worse than what’s available to us. 
 
Yes , yes we should,  like maybe try and put in a system that develops players ourselves ???
 
No fuking way should we be capping players just to tie them to us
And why not some of them are already in our systems anyway just need to get them on board before it’s too late.
It’s clear our systems in place will only get us so far we have a limited playing pool.
Why not use every avenue that’s open to us there is nothing illegal in what we are doing.

Because our country is better than that - that being dishing out caps just to tie people to us , if people want to play for us and are eligible great  - welcome aboard , if they don't then - move on
 
I would hate to see us trying to tie down dual nationals just for the sake of it , its not right whether its legal or not
Clearly they do want to play for us but their heads get turned and they end up playing with some other country which may be more beneficial to them.

Ultimately if take the high moral ground it will
cost us in the long run.
Beggars can’t be choosers.

We produce very little in our leagues so we depend on other countries to put the real time in developing our lads so to say we are better than that is only a token gesture most of the work going into to Irish players is done in a foreign country.



Heads get turned? Grealish's coaches, people who worked with him for years and know his situation intimately, are on record as saying that he always planned to play for England.

Rice has been very vocal (arguably more than he even has to be) about wanting to play for England and sings GSTQ louder than any of his teammates.

I've just posted another quote from Ben Wilmot admitting that he was going to throw in his lot with us until England's U-19's called him up.

The vast majority of these cases play for us at underage level, as the rules entitle them to, if they can't get into the England setup. If they're good enough they'll play for England. It's as simple as that.

There's no head turning. They're English players. England are entitled to select them. And we're entitled to focus on capping Irish born players or, such was the way under Noel King, aggressively cap virtually every eligible player playing in L1, L2 and NL.

Can't complain when they get away.
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Liam Brady
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had rice been called from the bench against Moldova would he have said no?
Not a chance and he would have 20 caps for us by now
Similarly grealish at a younger age no sign of England them would he refuse a cap highly unlikely.

No One said they are not entitled to play for England all I’m saying is they are entitled to play for us also and we need to take advantage of it and if this means caping them younger than so be it.
The gamble is very small 
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Ray Houghton
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Points: 4680 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grannyrule Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2020 at 10:37pm
We should go out and tie down as many as we can. I don't want Ireland turning into a poor football nation by just relying on Irish born players only.
The only way is up
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Did some digging on John Joe Finn (or John Patrick) of Getafe as I expected him to interact with the media on the back of his league debut ahead of another potential appearance this weekend.

I was hoping his dad would get a mention so we could maybe get an idea of where his head is at but he only mentioned his mum. 

"When jumping onto the grass, the first thing that came to mind was the illusion that I was going to do to my mother”.


Edited by Hotlips_Hoolahan - 10 Dec 2020 at 10:41pm
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Originally posted by Hotlips_Hoolahan Hotlips_Hoolahan wrote:

Did some digging on John Joe Finn (or John Patrick) of Getafe as I expected him to interact with the media on the back of his league debut ahead of another potential appearance this weekend.

I was hoping his dad would get a mention so we could maybe get an idea of where his head is at but he only mentioned his mum. 

"When jumping onto the grass, the first thing that came to mind was the illusion that I was going to do to my mother”.

Hmmm ... really hoping that something got lost in translation there
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Conor Hazard made his debut for Celtic tonight.
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McGuane ( formerly Agyei-Tabi before he changed his name ) is a strange one. Looked a teenage prodigy at Arsenal but was let go, played once in the Barcelona first team as a sub in a Catalan Super Cup final, wasn't cutting it at Nottingham Forest before being sent on a season's loan to Oxford whose poor form is baffling after almost being promoted last season. All their Irish players-Sykes, Forde, Kelly, Shodipo-are, like McGuane, in and out of the team for whatever reasons. Conor Hazard of Celtic could still switch from NI but we are rather well off for young goalkeepers at the moment.
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Jack Charlton
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Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

had rice been called from the bench against Moldova would he have said no?
Not a chance and he would have 20 caps for us by now
Similarly grealish at a younger age no sign of England them would he refuse a cap highly unlikely.

No One said they are not entitled to play for England all I’m saying is they are entitled to play for us also and we need to take advantage of it and if this means caping them younger than so be it.
The gamble is very small 

Rice wasn’t on the bench for the game against Moldova.
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I think John Joes father passed away, going by his facebook profile. 
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That’s awful for a young kid
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Yeah shocking but he must be very strong mentally to get to where he is having only turned 17, never seen him play but he must be a bit special to be appearing in La Liga at 17.
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Originally posted by BrendanD88 BrendanD88 wrote:

Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

had rice been called from the bench against Moldova would he have said no?
Not a chance and he would have 20 caps for us by now
Similarly grealish at a younger age no sign of England them would he refuse a cap highly unlikely.

No One said they are not entitled to play for England all I’m saying is they are entitled to play for us also and we need to take advantage of it and if this means caping them younger than so be it.
The gamble is very small 

Rice wasn’t on the bench for the game against Moldova.


Right you are. Makes all the complaints about not capping Rice against Moldova even sillier. It was never even a runner.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/international/crazy-idea-to-cap-declan-rice-against-moldova-says-o-neill-1.3688800

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/declan-rice-ireland-184196

I take it he was called up to train with the squad ahead of the Moldova game or something? Why else are there are all these articles about not capping him then? Bizarre stuff which completely disregards the likelihood that Rice was perfectly fine with not running the risk of getting cap-tied in a competitive game.
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Originally posted by JoxerDaly JoxerDaly wrote:

Yeah shocking but he must be very strong mentally to get to where he is having only turned 17, never seen him play but he must be a bit special to be appearing in La Liga at 17.


"Just because he signed with Madrid underage doesn't mean he will turn out to be any good. Wonder will this thread still be going in 10 years time"


It's been almost 10 years and looks like it will be, barring calamity.

Didn't know his mum was an "international catwalk model".


Edited by Hotlips_Hoolahan - 10 Dec 2020 at 11:53pm
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Originally posted by Hotlips_Hoolahan Hotlips_Hoolahan wrote:

Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

when you see where we are now it’s clear we have to change our philosophy around granny rulers.losing grealish will go down as one of our biggest mistakes in relation to this rule.
We need to be selfish about it and cap them young and take decisions out of lads heads.
But it is much easier for the likes of England to turn players head.
And at the moment they can’t be much worse than what’s available to us. 


Unless I'm mistaken, Rice pulled out of the first meaningful competitive squad he was named in. He was named in a squad for a game with Moldova in 2016 but he knew, and the manager knew, that he was never going to get on the pitch in a million years when he hadn't even played a senior game for West Ham at that stage. It's no coincidence he never accepted a single competitive call up once he started playing in the PL for West Ham. Grealish pulled out of the first senior squad he was named in. Bamford, Crowley and Ronan are the highest profile of eligible players who've switched sides at underage level after England showed interest - the latter two only asserting their commitment to us once they started struggling at senior level for various clubs, while Bamford is quite satisfied to wait for England or not at all.

It's a nonsensical idea to start using one of three substitutions in a competitive game to cap a Dag & Red player on the off chance he will turn out good enough. How do you think other players would react to stuff like that - do you think it would honestly help further endear Stephen Kenny to the players if they're already on the fence re: him?

If Joe Hodge is as highly rated at City as he's supposed to be and was called up for a competitive game in March, a) I'm highly skeptical he would accept a call-up to begin with unless it was to train with the players for the experience, and b) he would not be a willing pawn in a scheme to bring him on in the 6th minute of second half stoppage time when we're beating Luxembourg 3-0 so we can cynically prevent him from playing for another team.

Players have agency in this; especially players who play for Man City.

Another thing is we can't even score against teams like Gibraltar. So it's pointless contemplating a scenario we're we could be in a position to make a cynical substitution like this.
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