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The O'Shea 
Jack Charlton
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 Posted: 14 Apr 2020 at 9:18pm |
 irishmufc wrote:
pre Madonna wrote:
They were eligible to play for Northern Ireland and the manager of the teams that they played for wanted to play his strongest team. As far as the players were concerned, they may well never have imagined playing for anybody else, even if the may have dreamed of playing for another.For the national association it is a risk that they have to take. Every association has benefited from players who may well have dreamed for playing for another. I’m sure the north wouldn’t hand the likes of McGinn back, nor would we hand many of ours back, even the duds! It hurts more, and is much more of a story, when a player defects from an association they represented to another, but it just has to be taken on the chin.
Also, as identity is such a difficult and fluid thing, particularly as this is a sport and not war, how can you decide who should and shouldn’t play for who? Lads like McClean, who might not even recognise the political entity he once represented, may have been happy to play for coaches he grew up with or players he knew. He could have gone on and had a hundred caps and a half dozen death threats and have been happy to do so for one person or reason.
The eligibility laws aren’t perfect, there is some tweaking needed, but they aren’t far off being as fair as possible. Theoretically, no one should have to be coaxed or cajoled, but players will make their decisions for a myriad of reasons and it is little more than thoughtcrime to start second guessing what they are, even when it seems obvious. |
I've never been in McClean or Duffy's shoes so I would be cognisant of the choices they had to make, but the fact they both clearly identify as Irish and see Ireland as their national team, then their willingness to play for N.I. is less understandable for me than English born Rice and Grealish who clearly seen England as their country. The question of identity being a difficult and fluid thing would apply more in the Grealish/Rice cases than with McClean or Duffy's.
I will add that they may not have had the opportunity to play for Ireland underage or have the same access to play for Ireland given they were born in the IFA's territory. I assume McClean and Duffy would have had coaches and players in the N.I. underage set-up that they wanted to play for and with but I do think if that was the case, it's a bit of kick in the teeth for them when McClean describes his time with N.I. as a stepping stone to play for Ireland. Playing for N.I. and then coming out with comments like that is a bit disrespectful imo.
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What's hard to understand? NI offered them a chance to play international football and they took that opportunity. It's not as if it was some random country either, they would have been doing it with fellas they likely knew or were friends with. Even if they don't see themselves as Northern Irish, it's not at all difficult to see why they took uo their offer of underage international football.
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irishmufc
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Posted: 14 Apr 2020 at 9:46pm |
The O'Shea wrote:
irishmufc wrote:
pre Madonna wrote:
They were eligible to play for Northern Ireland and the manager of the teams that they played for wanted to play his strongest team. As far as the players were concerned, they may well never have imagined playing for anybody else, even if the may have dreamed of playing for another.For the national association it is a risk that they have to take. Every association has benefited from players who may well have dreamed for playing for another. I’m sure the north wouldn’t hand the likes of McGinn back, nor would we hand many of ours back, even the duds! It hurts more, and is much more of a story, when a player defects from an association they represented to another, but it just has to be taken on the chin.
Also, as identity is such a difficult and fluid thing, particularly as this is a sport and not war, how can you decide who should and shouldn’t play for who? Lads like McClean, who might not even recognise the political entity he once represented, may have been happy to play for coaches he grew up with or players he knew. He could have gone on and had a hundred caps and a half dozen death threats and have been happy to do so for one person or reason.
The eligibility laws aren’t perfect, there is some tweaking needed, but they aren’t far off being as fair as possible. Theoretically, no one should have to be coaxed or cajoled, but players will make their decisions for a myriad of reasons and it is little more than thoughtcrime to start second guessing what they are, even when it seems obvious. |
I've never been in McClean or Duffy's shoes so I would be cognisant of the choices they had to make, but the fact they both clearly identify as Irish and see Ireland as their national team, then their willingness to play for N.I. is less understandable for me than English born Rice and Grealish who clearly seen England as their country. The question of identity being a difficult and fluid thing would apply more in the Grealish/Rice cases than with McClean or Duffy's.
I will add that they may not have had the opportunity to play for Ireland underage or have the same access to play for Ireland given they were born in the IFA's territory. I assume McClean and Duffy would have had coaches and players in the N.I. underage set-up that they wanted to play for and with but I do think if that was the case, it's a bit of kick in the teeth for them when McClean describes his time with N.I. as a stepping stone to play for Ireland. Playing for N.I. and then coming out with comments like that is a bit disrespectful imo.
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What's hard to understand? NI offered them a chance to play international football and they took that opportunity. It's not as if it was some random country either, they would have been doing it with fellas they likely knew or were friends with. Even if they don't see themselves as Northern Irish, it's not at all difficult to see why they took uo their offer of underage international football. |
Eh? I've just acknowledged that's the reason they played for N.I. in the first place at underage hence "I assume McClean..."
As for the bits in bold, there's no such country or nationality 
If Duffy and McClean hadn't the opportunity to play for Ireland at underage level, then fair enough that they played for N.I. at underage but I do think there should be more restrictions imposed to stop the switching of allegiances. Brian Kerr suggested before that once a player is in the U-21's of their chosen national team, then that's their choice made.
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pre Madonna
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Posted: 14 Apr 2020 at 10:04pm |
irishmufc wrote:
pre Madonna wrote:
They were eligible to play for Northern Ireland and the manager of the teams that they played for wanted to play his strongest team. As far as the players were concerned, they may well never have imagined playing for anybody else, even if the may have dreamed of playing for another.For the national association it is a risk that they have to take. Every association has benefited from players who may well have dreamed for playing for another. I’m sure the north wouldn’t hand the likes of McGinn back, nor would we hand many of ours back, even the duds! It hurts more, and is much more of a story, when a player defects from an association they represented to another, but it just has to be taken on the chin.
Also, as identity is such a difficult and fluid thing, particularly as this is a sport and not war, how can you decide who should and shouldn’t play for who? Lads like McClean, who might not even recognise the political entity he once represented, may have been happy to play for coaches he grew up with or players he knew. He could have gone on and had a hundred caps and a half dozen death threats and have been happy to do so for one person or reason.
The eligibility laws aren’t perfect, there is some tweaking needed, but they aren’t far off being as fair as possible. Theoretically, no one should have to be coaxed or cajoled, but players will make their decisions for a myriad of reasons and it is little more than thoughtcrime to start second guessing what they are, even when it seems obvious. |
I've never been in McClean or Duffy's shoes so I would be cognisant of the choices they had to make, but the fact they both clearly identify as Irish and see Ireland as their national team, then their willingness to play for N.I. is less understandable for me than English born Rice and Grealish who clearly seen England as their country. The question of identity being a difficult and fluid thing would apply more in the Grealish/Rice cases than with McClean or Duffy's.
I will add that they may not have had the opportunity to play for Ireland underage or have the same access to play for Ireland given they were born in the IFA's territory. I assume McClean and Duffy would have had coaches and players in the N.I. underage set-up that they wanted to play for and with but I do think if that was the case, it's a bit of kick in the teeth for them when McClean describes his time with N.I. as a stepping stone to play for Ireland. Playing for N.I. and then coming out with comments like that is a bit disrespectful imo.
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It applies in every case or none. The problem continues here that people let their own emotions and politics, and whatever else, interfere. You don't think it is possibly to be Irish and Northern Irish in a footballing sense, but why can't you? If you are a decent player and grow up all your life in Down, Derry or wherever, you will most likely have played in IFA teams and IFA clubs and IFA referees. Their footballing education will be Northern Irish, in the same way that Ryan Johansson's will have been Luxembourgish or the Boateng brothers, to pick a random example, German. Had McClean been born in England, Scotland or Wales and played for any of those underage sides before declaring for Ireland I assume you wouldn't have the same problem? Would you say that a 17 year old born and raised in ,say, Donegal couldn't play for the ROI underage before representing, say, Lithuania, the land of his father's birth? Why is that situation different from McClean's, when put down as cold fact without emotional or political interference? McClean was born in another association and was eligible for another. That's the bottom line. It might annoy fans of the home association more in this instance because of politically charged emotions, but that doesn't change anything.
Players will play often play for the association they were developed in before changing for a variety of reasons, and vice-versa, but we can't pick and choose to suit individual arguments. The rules aren't perfect, but it would be nearly impossible for them to be.
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pre Madonna
Robbie Keane
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Posted: 14 Apr 2020 at 10:15pm |
irishmufc wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
irishmufc wrote:
pre Madonna wrote:
They were eligible to play for Northern Ireland and the manager of the teams that they played for wanted to play his strongest team. As far as the players were concerned, they may well never have imagined playing for anybody else, even if the may have dreamed of playing for another.For the national association it is a risk that they have to take. Every association has benefited from players who may well have dreamed for playing for another. I’m sure the north wouldn’t hand the likes of McGinn back, nor would we hand many of ours back, even the duds! It hurts more, and is much more of a story, when a player defects from an association they represented to another, but it just has to be taken on the chin.
Also, as identity is such a difficult and fluid thing, particularly as this is a sport and not war, how can you decide who should and shouldn’t play for who? Lads like McClean, who might not even recognise the political entity he once represented, may have been happy to play for coaches he grew up with or players he knew. He could have gone on and had a hundred caps and a half dozen death threats and have been happy to do so for one person or reason.
The eligibility laws aren’t perfect, there is some tweaking needed, but they aren’t far off being as fair as possible. Theoretically, no one should have to be coaxed or cajoled, but players will make their decisions for a myriad of reasons and it is little more than thoughtcrime to start second guessing what they are, even when it seems obvious. |
I've never been in McClean or Duffy's shoes so I would be cognisant of the choices they had to make, but the fact they both clearly identify as Irish and see Ireland as their national team, then their willingness to play for N.I. is less understandable for me than English born Rice and Grealish who clearly seen England as their country. The question of identity being a difficult and fluid thing would apply more in the Grealish/Rice cases than with McClean or Duffy's.
I will add that they may not have had the opportunity to play for Ireland underage or have the same access to play for Ireland given they were born in the IFA's territory. I assume McClean and Duffy would have had coaches and players in the N.I. underage set-up that they wanted to play for and with but I do think if that was the case, it's a bit of kick in the teeth for them when McClean describes his time with N.I. as a stepping stone to play for Ireland. Playing for N.I. and then coming out with comments like that is a bit disrespectful imo.
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What's hard to understand? NI offered them a chance to play international football and they took that opportunity. It's not as if it was some random country either, they would have been doing it with fellas they likely knew or were friends with. Even if they don't see themselves as Northern Irish, it's not at all difficult to see why they took uo their offer of underage international football. |
Eh? I've just acknowledged that's the reason they played for N.I. in the first place at underage hence "I assume McClean..."
As for the bits in bold, there's no such country or nationality
If Duffy and McClean hadn't the opportunity to play for Ireland at underage level, then fair enough that they played for N.I. at underage but I do think there should be more restrictions imposed to stop the switching of allegiances. Brian Kerr suggested before that once a player is in the U-21's of their chosen national team, then that's their choice made. |
I am very sceptical of that, we lost out on players in the past when this was the rule and they were denied an opportunity to play international football for a nation they had a connection to and a smaller country was denied an opportunity to strengthen. I am against people being allowed to change after appearing at senior level, if for nothing else that it helped demean the status of friendlies even more.
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irishmufc
Robbie Keane
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Posted: 14 Apr 2020 at 10:49pm |
pre Madonna wrote:
irishmufc wrote:
pre Madonna wrote:
They were eligible to play for Northern Ireland and the manager of the teams that they played for wanted to play his strongest team. As far as the players were concerned, they may well never have imagined playing for anybody else, even if the may have dreamed of playing for another.For the national association it is a risk that they have to take. Every association has benefited from players who may well have dreamed for playing for another. I’m sure the north wouldn’t hand the likes of McGinn back, nor would we hand many of ours back, even the duds! It hurts more, and is much more of a story, when a player defects from an association they represented to another, but it just has to be taken on the chin.
Also, as identity is such a difficult and fluid thing, particularly as this is a sport and not war, how can you decide who should and shouldn’t play for who? Lads like McClean, who might not even recognise the political entity he once represented, may have been happy to play for coaches he grew up with or players he knew. He could have gone on and had a hundred caps and a half dozen death threats and have been happy to do so for one person or reason.
The eligibility laws aren’t perfect, there is some tweaking needed, but they aren’t far off being as fair as possible. Theoretically, no one should have to be coaxed or cajoled, but players will make their decisions for a myriad of reasons and it is little more than thoughtcrime to start second guessing what they are, even when it seems obvious. |
I've never been in McClean or Duffy's shoes so I would be cognisant of the choices they had to make, but the fact they both clearly identify as Irish and see Ireland as their national team, then their willingness to play for N.I. is less understandable for me than English born Rice and Grealish who clearly seen England as their country. The question of identity being a difficult and fluid thing would apply more in the Grealish/Rice cases than with McClean or Duffy's.
I will add that they may not have had the opportunity to play for Ireland underage or have the same access to play for Ireland given they were born in the IFA's territory. I assume McClean and Duffy would have had coaches and players in the N.I. underage set-up that they wanted to play for and with but I do think if that was the case, it's a bit of kick in the teeth for them when McClean describes his time with N.I. as a stepping stone to play for Ireland. Playing for N.I. and then coming out with comments like that is a bit disrespectful imo.
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It applies in every case or none. The problem continues here that people let their own emotions and politics, and whatever else, interfere. You don't think it is possibly to be Irish and Northern Irish in a footballing sense, but why can't you? If you are a decent player and grow up all your life in Down, Derry or wherever, you will most likely have played in IFA teams and IFA clubs and IFA referees. Their footballing education will be Northern Irish, in the same way that Ryan Johansson's will have been Luxembourgish or the Boateng brothers, to pick a random example, German. Had McClean been born in England, Scotland or Wales and played for any of those underage sides before declaring for Ireland I assume you wouldn't have the same problem? Would you say that a 17 year old born and raised in ,say, Donegal couldn't play for the ROI underage before representing, say, Lithuania, the land of his father's birth? Why is that situation different from McClean's, when put down as cold fact without emotional or political interference? McClean was born in another association and was eligible for another. That's the bottom line. It might annoy fans of the home association more in this instance because of politically charged emotions, but that doesn't change anything.
Players will play often play for the association they were developed in before changing for a variety of reasons, and vice-versa, but we can't pick and choose to suit individual arguments. The rules aren't perfect, but it would be nearly impossible for them to be. |
I think there is a fundamental difference here between the IFA/FAI situation and the FAI losing/gaining players from other associations. That's why I don't think Johansson, Rice etc etc is as relevant in this sense as McClean and Duffy is. My argument is that if they had an opportunity to play in the set up of the national team they always wanted to represent, then they should've done so. McClean and Duffy is more black and white imo than other players who may feel conflicted in a nationality sense. I seriously doubt either of them ever felt 'Northern Irish' tbh.
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pre Madonna
Robbie Keane
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Posted: 14 Apr 2020 at 11:19pm |
You think there is because of your own political opinions, and possibly theirs, but that is assumption, but the rule book doesn’t, and can’t, differentiate. It would be anarchy and not the kind I approve of. Whether they identify as Irish, British, Northern Irish, all three, none or Lebanese is irrelevant. In a footballing sense they were Northern Irish having been born and playing their football there growing up and eligible for the ROI; if anything could be up for debate it is their eligibility to play for us. I doubt you, or the lads themselves would consider that fair? I certainly wouldn’t. Opinion on the political landscape of Ireland has nothing to do with it. Either a player can play for an association other than the one he was born in or he can’t. The other alternative, that he must be made to declare at an age that many people would consider unfair in a world where people have complex family trees. I broadly agree with FIFA’s rules. I think that they are close to being as fair as possible, regardless of how they may or may not impact us.
Edited by pre Madonna - 15 Apr 2020 at 8:17am
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PaddyDaCulchie
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Posted: 14 Apr 2020 at 11:49pm |
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No point forcing players, if they want to play we we give em chance then hopefully they take it. Likelyhood we have 4 or 5 decent strikers coming through, if they do, Idah, Connolly, Parrot, Obafemi and Afolabi etc then likelyhood is we are going to lose young dual qualified strikers in next few years. We will win some n lose some. f**k it. If they stick it out be happy, if they don't let them f**k off to where grass is greener in their world for whatever reason they choose. Let's just hope Kenny gives the best prospects a chance before sh*t gets complicated.
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The Huntacha
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Posted: 15 Apr 2020 at 11:04am |
The Grealish and Rice cases are more complex because they were already within our underage, and in Rice's case, senior set-up.
I would imagine that Kenny is referring to players like Bamford, who has been out of the set-up for quite a while, and Redmond or Maddison, who were clearly using the eligibility rules to improves their chances of an England call-up, at a time when it is easier to receive one than in previous decades.
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Left foot
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Posted: 15 Apr 2020 at 11:27am |
What are the thoughts on Joe Hodge and Will Smallbone? These two for me have real potential and could have a massive impact on the Ireland team in the next couple of years.
I fear that agents could try to get them to 'consider their options' with the promise of a mountain of money
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Territorial
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Posted: 15 Apr 2020 at 11:35am |
The O'Shea wrote:
As for the "fierce patriot" tripe, how would McClean playing for NI have changed that? Can someone not feel entirely Irish and yet still play for NI? McGovern and McGinn have been great servants for NI despite seeing themselves as nothing other than Irish. Your constant sniping and bitterness at McClean simply betrays you for a bigot. |
Thanks for that.
For the record, I have no problem with the likes of McGovern (trained with ROI before switching), McGinn (freely admits he was an ROI fan), Duffy (didn't like that he "played us", but it happens), Kearns (test case for the rules) or Wilson (made his decision early, stuck by it).
A "bigot" is someone who judges people for who they are. My problem with McClean is not who he is, but rather what he says and does, incl telling lies about the NI fans and twisting the record since his switch.
There is not one Irish player in the last 20 years, North or South, Prod or RC, who has so consistently provoked/attracted so much controversy with his actions and statements. That helps no-one - and I would say exactly the same if it was an NI player from the other side of the divide stirring things like McClean.
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Posted: 15 Apr 2020 at 11:40am |
Left foot wrote:
What are the thoughts on Joe Hodge and Will Smallbone? These two for me have real potential and could have a massive impact on the Ireland team in the next couple of years.
I fear that agents could try to get them to 'consider their options' with the promise of a mountain of money |
I'd like to think SK will have a close eye on these, particularly Joe Hodge, who he has named on several occasions. While Joe may be a bit young/early for a call-up, Will has played some PL games so no need to delay there - get him straight into a NL squad and get it done.
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Posted: 15 Apr 2020 at 1:27pm |
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I think Smallbone will switch. Just my opinion.
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Posted: 15 Apr 2020 at 1:36pm |
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Hodge is very young, only 17, looks a real prospect but not an immediate contender for a full cap. Smallbone, whose mother is Irish, needs to be tied down quickly like his team-mate Michael Obafemi was. Too early to predict how good he's going to get but the NL will provide an opportunity to cap him. Conor Ronan is another in the same category and I believe he is well capable of moving into the Wolves first team in the near future.
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IrishCanadian
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Posted: 15 Apr 2020 at 3:05pm |
Smallbone isn’t good enough for England unless he’s willing to hang around for 5 years to get possibly 1 cap. The top English youth coming through are easily better than him.
Connor Ronan simply isn’t even close. There isn’t even a discussion there, he’s never playing for England.
Joe Hodge is the only one good enough.
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Posted: 15 Apr 2020 at 3:27pm |
Smallbone not being good enough for england is for me off the mark. I would agree that england are well catered for in the area of the pitch that smallbone plays but form can nosedive for players like Sancho or Alli.we just don't know.
They could all do a Danny Cadamarteri...
If he did decide to play for england he would be in competition for a single available place with a host a superb players but he is a talented player in his own right.
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amccarten313
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Posted: 15 Apr 2020 at 4:05pm |
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To be sure, i think McClean's best days are past him and I have thought for some time he should not be starting games for us as there are better options. Can't fault his passion but we have better players. That said, he would easily have close to 100 caps for NI, to try and say now that they are "happy" he didn't pick them is just pure revisionist history, and illustrates an inability to look at things objectively. Played a lot of games in the premier league for Sunderland and wba, and did well at wigan in the championship. Fair enough he def hasnt done well at stoke, but i mean josh magennis has 50 caps for NI...mcclean would have easily been a constant in their team for most of the decade realistically
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The O'Shea
Jack Charlton
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Posted: 15 Apr 2020 at 4:38pm |
IrishCanadian wrote:
Smallbone isn’t good enough for England unless he’s willing to hang around for 5 years to get possibly 1 cap. The top English youth coming through are easily better than him.
Connor Ronan simply isn’t even close. There isn’t even a discussion there, he’s never playing for England.
Joe Hodge is the only one good enough. |
Smallbone has broken through to playing Premier League football at 20 years of age; Hodge still has a hell of a long way to go before we can say the same for him. As things stand, Smallbone is in a much better position to play for Ireland or England than Hodge is.
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IrishCanadian
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Posted: 15 Apr 2020 at 5:57pm |
The O'Shea wrote:
IrishCanadian wrote:
Smallbone isn’t good enough for England unless he’s willing to hang around for 5 years to get possibly 1 cap. The top English youth coming through are easily better than him.
Connor Ronan simply isn’t even close. There isn’t even a discussion there, he’s never playing for England.
Joe Hodge is the only one good enough. |
Smallbone has broken through to playing Premier League football at 20 years of age; Hodge still has a hell of a long way to go before we can say the same for him. As things stand, Smallbone is in a much better position to play for Ireland or England than Hodge is. |
He’s 20 with 2 appearances to his name, he hasn’t broken through to anything.
Joe Hodge is one of the best players in his age group, Will Smallbone is nowhere near that. Being older doesn’t make you better. As things stand, thinking Smallbone has any chance of playing for England is just short of laughable. His competition is miles ahead.
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