Players eligible for Ireland

Territorial wrote:

Danny Invincible wrote:

Nobody has made the claim that FIFA regard the entire island of Ireland as the administrative territory of the FAI. The argument is simply this: for the purposes of the eligibility rules, FIFA regard the term "territory" in article 7 to mean the territory over which Irish nationality law - the nationality law relevant to the FAI - applies.

What evidence do you have for suggesting that FIFA makes a distinction between Administrative rights and Jurisdictional rights over a territory? Where else have they ever done this? Why was the Falls League required by FIFA to disaffiliate from the FAI as a condition of the FAI's admission to FIFA, when the FAI had already been (ahem) administering it for a period?

Quite simply, if the FAI has "jurisdiction" over NI, why aren't they allowed also to administer the game the game there? After all, it's not as if the FAI never wanted administrative rights over NI. Rather it's precisely what they demanded - and were denied - at the time of the split.

Like your "purposive interpretation" claim, this alleged distinction appears to me to be an exercise in barrel-scraping, to get you to the place where you want to be, rather than the place to where the Rules clearly point.

You're either being wilfully obtuse to muddy the waters or you're not very bright. I'll repeat again: nobody has claimed that the FAI has jurisdiction or administrative authority over the north. The north is the territory of the IFA and not the FAI; there is no dispute here. The argument is simply that, as Irish nationality law applies over the north on an extra-territorial basis, it appears that FIFA regard this as satisfying the "territory" requirement in article 7. That doesn't mean they or anyone else thinks the FAI have jurisdiction over the north. It's simply an acknowledgement that Irish nationality law has 'jus soli' effect there. I outlined my reasoning as to why I hold the position I do in the final paragraph of the post you were replying to.

Territorial wrote:

Danny Invincible wrote:

Your last two paragraphs there are thus irrelevant, seeing as nobody's claiming that the entire island is the administrative territory of the FAI. The administrative territory of the FAI is the 26 counties. The administrative territory of the IFA is the north-eastern six counties. There is no dispute or ambiguity over administrative territory or jurisdiction (seeing as territorial jurisdiction is not the same thing as the application of nationality law, which can be extra-territorial).

Nationality law is a matter for governments - FIFA recognises and accepts that, which is why they take from it when it comes to international eligibility, where Nationality is an inevitable element.

But the jurisdiction, governance and administration of the game is solely within their remit, which is why they uniformly reject interference by governments in these areas.

I've no idea what the relevance of any of that is.

Territorial wrote:

Danny Invincible wrote:

Your last two paragraphs there are thus irrelevant, seeing as nobody's claiming that the entire island is the administrative territory of the FAI. The administrative territory of the FAI is the 26 counties. The administrative territory of the IFA is the north-eastern six counties. There is no dispute or ambiguity over administrative territory or jurisdiction (seeing as territorial jurisdiction is not the same thing as the application of nationality law, which can be extra-territorial).

You are really stretching it here, when you now make a distinction between "territorial jurisdiction" and (the application of) "nationality law".

After all, the whole basis for your claim that the FAI has jurisdiction over NI* is that it follows from the ROI's nationality laws!

But it's not my claim that the FAI has jurisdiction over the north. Where have I claimed that? It evidently doesn't have jurisdiction over the north, and I've even emphasised this numerous times already.

Territorial wrote:

Or maybe you're claiming the Irish government's ability to offer Nationality to people from NI also gives it jurisdiction over NI, and by extension gives the FAI footballing jurisdiction over the IFA's territory?

Erm, no, I'm not claiming that either. Just read what I actually write, or stop trolling, or whatever it is you're doing.

Territorial wrote:

I mean, why not go the whole hog, and claim Nationality Law = Territorial Jurisdiction = Administrative Jurisdiction?

Because they're not the same thing.

Territorial wrote:

Danny Invincible wrote:

I have Cormac Moore's book. I'm not unfamiliar with the history of that period and the origin of the FAI, established to replace the IFA as the national association rather than to technically split from it and co-exist.

Exactly!

The FAI was originally set up in order to claim complete jurisdiction over the whole of the island of Ireland, territory, administration and all, and FIFA knocked them back, thereby enforcing the split. And in the course of doing so, the FAI renounced its previous claim to jurisdiction over NI, otherwise they would have been excluded by FIFA.

That argues towards my case, not yours! LOL

No, you just don't appear able to grasp the point I'm making.

Territorial wrote:

Danny Invincible wrote:

And the reason why there haven't been any cases since...? Well, maybe it's because there really aren't that many cases of players with a northern-born grandparent who'd be good enough, or even known about, in order to be selected by the FAI in the first place.

With the same rule still being in place, surely the FAI could have found at least one other such player, of a similar standard to Adam Barton, to play for your U-19's say?

Do you know such a player who would have been good enough? If you don't know of any examples, then how can you say the FAI should have found one? Why do you assume the FAI would or should know they exist?

Anyhow, I mentioned Carl Magnay. He was keen on playing for the FAI until injury disrupted his career.

Territorial wrote:

Danny Invincible wrote:

You can discard Jamal Lewis from your paltry list of "candidates", by the way, as his mother is from Belfast, so he'd be an Irish national from birth if he wished to acknowledge his entitlement, meaning article 7 would never have applied to him had the FAI been interested or been aware of his potential eligibility. Were the FAI aware of the background of George Saville before the IFA were? You've no idea.

OK, JL accepted.

As for GS, the FAI surely had enough contacts/players at Millwall to be alerted by the IFA's interest and make enquiries? After all, the whole process can take some time, and the FAI can move quickly enough* when they want to.

Even if the FAI had been aware of Saville's potential eligiblity, would he even have been good enough? I've never even seen the guy play. I know next to nothing about him.

Territorial wrote:

* - When James McClean was called up by NI for a competitive full international - AND ACCEPTED - a late transfer swoop by Sunderland accorded sufficient time for the FAI to intervene and suddenly remind James that there was another Irish international team in existence, and not just any old Irish team, but the only one he would ever consider playing for! LOL

The FAI didn't intervene. McClean asked Niall Quinn to get in touch with the FAI and Niall Quinn did so on behalf of McClean.

Territorial wrote:

Danny Invincible wrote:

The FAI don't disclose personal player details, I suspect, because it's none of their business to be discussing or divulging player's personal details. This was the same for Alex Bruce and Noe Baba when I sought information as to how specifically each player was eligible; they merely confirmed that the two players were fully eligible and refused to go into any further detail. Even on that occasion, they told me that I would have to communicate with FIFA for further information as to how article 7 should be interpreted. They would neither confirm nor deny whether my own reading was correct.

There can be no breach of confidentiality to make a simple, general declaration that eg "The FAI is entitled to select any player solely on the basis of a grandparent born in NI" (Or "the six northeastern counties of the island", if you insist Tongue

).

In fact, there is no reason whatever why they could not simply say that "Adam Barton is eligible to represent the FAI due to his having a grandparent from Belfast".

After all, that information is already in the public domain from when he represented NI, and can hardly be said to be disclosing personal information which he would not want repeated.

Indeed, one might almost consider that their refusal to make such a simple, inoffensive statement might actually be covering up something?

Or would that be being, ahem, conspiratorial? Wink

Email them yourself and ask them to confirm for you, say, Jeff Hendrick's date of birth and place of birth. They won't discuss it with you. It doesn't mean they're hiding anything. What would they have to hide in relation to Hendrick? They clearly just have a policy of not going into details on specific players.

Territorial wrote:

Danny Invincible wrote:

My belief that the term "territory" in article 7 refers to the territory over which the nationality law of the association concerned applies is based on the fact that Adam Barton, whose only connection to this island, as far as we know, is a northern-born grandparent, played for us in four competitive fixtures. Therefore, I think it is reasonable to assume he was and is fully eligible for the FAI. Assuming aforementioned information is correct, he can only have qualified through his northern-born grandparent and, seeing as he would have acquired Irish nationality after birth, then it is reasonable to assume that he qualified under article 7, which makes a "territory" stipulation. Since his grandparent was born on the island of Ireland, but outside the administrative territory of the FAI, then it must be the case that FIFA regard the term "territory" in article 7(c) as referring to the territory over which the nationality law relevant to the FAI and Barton applies. That is my reasoning and I think it's pretty solid.

Hmmm.

In googling something else just now, I came across this commentator on the matter, who opined as follows:

"After the entry of the IFA into FIFA in 1946, the FAI had acknowledged that the whole of the island did not fall under its jurisdiction. Prior to this, both associations had claimed to be the game's governing body throughout the whole of the island. Meanwhile, the IFA were still claiming jurisdiction over the entire island with regard to "Home Nations" games up until FIFA issued their 1951 dictat. Whilst recognising that its jurisdiction lay only within the confines of the territory of the state the Republic of Ireland, it is clear, however, that no corresponding dictats - to those aforementioned - with regard to the eligibility of Northern Ireland-born Irish nationals to play for the FAI were ever issued to the FAI. Indeed, whilst accepting that the territory of Northern Ireland was the realm of the IFA, there was never any acceptance by the FAI or remote indication by FIFA that Irish nationals, regardless of where they were born, would ever fall outside the sphere of the FAI's selection licence."

https://playereligibilityinireland.blogspot.com/

Damn!

If only he had thought to make a distinction between "territorial jurisdiction" vs "administrative jurisdiction", rather than framing the question as a distinction between "player eligibility" and (simple) "jurisdiction", we might have had the answer to our conundrum.

Again, there's no contradiction in what I've written. You just don't appear able to grasp my point.

Gerry Geary wrote:

Well over the years IFA had stolen players. Players who might had made EIRE stronger and stronger. Manchester United' Mal Donaghy, N.Forest M. O'Neill, Spurs Pat Jennings, Celtic' s Neil Lennon, WHU George MacCartney, Southampton's Chris Baird...etc Listen, those all wanted to play for the Republic but were denied

Thought Baird told Kerr to f**k off, no ?

Gerry Geary wrote:

Well over the years IFA had stolen players. Players who might had made EIRE stronger and stronger. Manchester United' Mal Donaghy, N.Forest M. O'Neill, Spurs Pat Jennings, Celtic' s Neil Lennon, WHU George MacCartney, Southampton's Chris Baird...etc Listen, those all wanted to play for the Republic but were denied

McCartney? Really?

I know he didn't want to play for the North, but I'd be very surprised if he wanted to play for us.

Goalkeeper Michael McGovern was close to declaring for us at one point when Kerr was in charge, but Kerr actually dissuaded him and told him he might have better luck with the IFA on account of our goalkeeping options at the time.

It's been known that Robinson was eligible since his Villa days. What is your point though? Even if there never had been a player "unearthed" in this thread (although there have been plenty), your criticism would still be irrelevant. The purpose of the thread is to discuss eligible players, not scout them...

Edited by The O'Shea - 24 Jan 2019 at 5:12pm

We're decent enough..

there is another U 16 on the books at Spurs who qualifies for Ireland ......Dennis Cirkin

https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/teams/under-18/players/dennis-cirkin/

born in Dublin and has played for England under age but apparently needs to make a decision to stay with them . he's a defender , under if the Fyi know about him ?

"in di cup for Tottinghang!"

Barna Bee wrote:

there is another U 16 on the books at Spurs who qualifies for Ireland ......Dennis Cirkin

https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/teams/under-18/players/dennis-cirkin/

born in Dublin and has played for England under age but apparently needs to make a decision to stay with them . he's a defender , under if the Fyi know about him ?

thought he had decided to play with his parents home country, they're eastern European, possibly Slovakia?

All goals, red & yellow cards posted on mastodon and facebook

horsebox wrote:

He played for Celtic when he was 7.

I think people just look at a persons name and make an assumption that their Irish.

Like what hope does 'Olamide Oluwatimilehin Babatunde Oluwaka Shodipo' have?

I didn't assume, that's why I asked. And with an Irish first and second name there's obviously a chance.

Has Wickham ever been approached before?

Mick's already shown he'll be more proactive about recruiting eligible players than O'Neill and Trappatoni. Kenny's evinced a worryingly prissy attitude recently in this regard, suggesting he'll favour Irish-born players.

It's worth noting that amidst all the talk about our lacking a target-man and Murphy being coaxed out of retirement, that Lukas Jutkiewicz has scored 10 goals and contributed 9 assists this season, with a move to Middlesbrough on the cards. More impressive stats than any other forward available to us.

Apparently the Charlton forward, Karlan Ahearne-Grant - linked with a move to Huddersfield - qualifies.