Players eligible for Ireland |
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coyne
Paul McGrath Joined: 17 Aug 2013 Location: Sunderland Status: Offline Points: 15881 |
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Guess what Terri. DI thinks Eric Dier is crap. Whats your thoughts on this
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gazurtoids
Liam Brady Joined: 13 Mar 2015 Location: dublin Status: Offline Points: 1763 |
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Jack Clark at Leeds eligible? ...Jack sounds a bit Irish, I'm sure I've met a few
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The O'Shea
Jack Charlton I know everything and I’m NEVER wrong Joined: 16 Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Status: Online Points: 9549 |
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I honestly can't believe you're persisting with this. Your argument is entirely conjecture-based, you have absolutely no evidence to back it up. Our position on the other hand is backed by concrete examples. Essentially, you rely on a literal interpretation of the statutes, apparently completely oblivious to the fact that laws are often not interpreted literally (particularly in cases where a literal interpretation would lead to an absurd outcome, which clearly applies here....)
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We're decent enough..
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Danny Invincible
Kevin Kilbane Joined: 21 Jun 2011 Status: Offline Points: 307 |
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Hi Terri, I've been on a bit of a break from forums for a while, but a little birdie told me you were chasing after me. Yes, that's me on Foot.ie too, and I'm truly flattered that you've been trawling through Foot.ie threads on eligibility to read my posts. Anyway, to the point, what exactly have I said that you perceive to be contradictory? What did I say in October of 2017 that is supposedly contradicted? It is my understanding that, for the purpose of applying article 7(c) in the Irish context, FIFA regard the entire island as the "territory" of the FAI; they apply a purposive interpretation rather than a literal one. The purposive approach to legal, statutory or regulatory interpretation is not something I'm just making up either. It has a long history in the legal tradition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purposive_approach By the way, I note you never saw fit to respond to my rebuttal of your errors in understanding back last March: https://forum.ybig.ie/forum_posts.asp?TID=51293&PID=2085508&title=were-not-brasil-were-tuaisceart-ireann#2085508 Can it be assumed that you now accept the points I made? (I hope you did actually read the Kearns judgment along with articles 5-8 of FIFA's Regulations Governing the Application of the Statutes and that it proved enlightening for you.)
Your notion that Barton may not have been eligible, despite having represented us in an under-21 friendly and four competitive qualification games for the European Under-21 Championship, is conspiracy theory. The FAI aren't sloppy with capping players in competitive games. It'd be a serious breach of rules and would be punished if found out. Barton's appearance in multiple competitive games is evidence of his eligibility - that reasonably satisfies the burden of proof here - unless you can supply some evidence to the contrary. If you can't, it's reasonable to assume he's eligible, based on the evidence. So, it was reported that Alex Bruce actually has a southern grandparent. Any idea where this alleged grandparent is from? I'd only ever seen it reported that he had a grandparent from Bangor when it came to media explanations for his eligibility for both the FAI and IFA. Can we be certain the Birmingham Mail picked up the facts of his case correctly? Media outlets are notorious for misreporting facts on eligibility matters. (For what's it's worth, the FAI's Disciplinary Control Unit confirmed to me in March of 2015 that Bruce was fully eligible to play for the FAI.) To suggest FIFA don't concern themselves with the specifics of states' nationality laws is nonsense. They have to in order to know whether articles other than just article 5 should apply to a player wishing to play for an international team. And what do you think the Players' Status Committee spend their time doing for months after a player requests a switch of association and before they approve the request?
Whether or not a player who fits the criteria under discussion has played a competitive senior international for us is irrelevant. Adam Barton played in four competitive under-21 games. Competitive means competitive, whether that's senior or under-age. The eligibility rules apply equally to all competitive age groups. If it were tested, Barton would be ruled eligible not because of any "fudge". It would because FIFA apply a purposive (rather then literal) approach to interpretation of the relevant regulation in the FAI's case and Barton is fully eligible under such an interpretation.
"Only" because the FAI's position accorded with the rules? The rules are pretty crucial. A dispute over them - due to a so obviously erroneous IFA interpretation - was the whole basis of the case. The case was never going to go any other way than the way it did, because the IFA erroneously thought article 16 (now article 6) applied to Kearns in respect of his eligibility to play for the FAI. Reality is that only article 15 (now article 5) applied to him in respect of his eligibility to play for the FAI. What other interpretation was possible? Edited by Danny Invincible - 12 Jan 2019 at 5:00am |
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horsebox
Robbie Keane Born n bred in darndale. Joined: 03 Feb 2010 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 34851 |
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You can dress it up however you like. |
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It was far across the sea,
When the devil got a hold of me, He wouldn't set me free, So he kept me soul for ransom. na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na. I'm a sailor man from Glasgow to |
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The O'Shea
Jack Charlton I know everything and I’m NEVER wrong Joined: 16 Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Status: Online Points: 9549 |
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It's also worth noting that Bailey Peackock-Farrell (who qualifies through his Enniskillen-born grandfather) was very recently approached by the FAI only to turn them down. So if Barton and Bruce were somehow actually ineligible despite the FAI picking them repeatedly, then they haven't learned their lesson.... Now the logical conclusion to this would be that there is no eligibility issue whatsoever; but in Territorial's world the FAI are dim-witted idiots, doomed to repeat the same mistakes over-and-over (all the while conveniently avoiding any sanctions from FIFA despite flaunting their rules...)
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/proud-bailey-peacock-farrell-embraces-his-northern-roots-1.3621851%3fmode=amp |
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We're decent enough..
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Luis Amor Rodriguez
Liam Brady Joined: 19 Sep 2016 Location: Harchester Status: Offline Points: 1664 |
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BPF was approached by Noel King at U21. He was not approached by senior management to be considered for a senior competitive cap. Therefore that example does not change the position or add anything to the discussion unfortunately. Taken one step further, it might be considered odd that BPF was not approached by senior management when he was playing GK for one of the best Championship teams (a position we're not laden down with quality for). Senior management also omitted to contact George Saville and Jamal Lewis, despite both featuring regularly at Championship level (and more recently playing better than any of our lot in the Aviva ). Possibly we can put these failures down to inadvertent and negligent scouting at senior level, but they do seem odd omissions.
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The O'Shea
Jack Charlton I know everything and I’m NEVER wrong Joined: 16 Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Status: Online Points: 9549 |
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You literally have no idea what you're talking about, do you? You do realise that U-21 level is a FIFA-sanctioned age group, don't you? That means that the eligibility rules relating to it are exactly the same as at senior level, they're indistinguishable....
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We're decent enough..
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Luis Amor Rodriguez
Liam Brady Joined: 19 Sep 2016 Location: Harchester Status: Offline Points: 1664 |
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No need to be gratuitously rude O'Shea. We're all adults here. Take a deep breath. Look out the window. And think happy thoughts.
Yes, of course I realise U21 is a FIFA-sanctioned age-group. However if we were to breach FIFA regulations in a U21 competition, the penalty (beyond a fine) would be a points-deduction in that competition (i.e.: at U21). It would not impact any senior team campaign. So BPF is in the Adam Barton category. And, as I said, AFAIK no player in those eligibility circumstances has been capped in a senior competitive international for us. Therefore, that risk has never been incurred at that level (e.g.: of a potential points deduction in an WC qualifying campaign, for example - a serious deterrent, one would have thought).
Edited by Luis Amor Rodriguez - 12 Jan 2019 at 4:52pm |
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Danny Invincible
Kevin Kilbane Joined: 21 Jun 2011 Status: Offline Points: 307 |
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You're peddling nonsense. Don't cry foul, play the victim and act like butter wouldn't melt when someone pulls you up on your disingenuous baloney, which you persist with again and again, despite having been corrected on the errors of your position months ago. You're creating this false dichotomy between youth level and the senior team in order to try and make room for your groundless theory - it really is clutching at straws at this point - but the eligibility rules apply throughout all age groups. Are you seriously suggesting the FAI would be happy to cap or would be careless about capping ineligible players in competitive under-21 games just because the penalty they'd incur wouldn't impact the senior team? I mean, the FAI deserve criticism on many matters, but they're not that unprofessional, for heaven's sake. Something like that would do huge reputational damage beyond the formal punishment FIFA or UEFA would dish out. Edited by Danny Invincible - 12 Jan 2019 at 5:11pm |
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The O'Shea
Jack Charlton I know everything and I’m NEVER wrong Joined: 16 Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Status: Online Points: 9549 |
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I'm not being "gratuitously rude", I'm repeating something that has been repeated on here a thousand times before. If it was your first time making the mistake, I'd have no issue with that; but it isn't, you continue to propagate your nonsense theory despite the fact you have been continuously corrected on it. That is, naturally enough, frustrating for those of us who actually have a rudimentary understanding of how FIFA's eligibility rules function.
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We're decent enough..
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Luis Amor Rodriguez
Liam Brady Joined: 19 Sep 2016 Location: Harchester Status: Offline Points: 1664 |
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Danny, another one who needs to take a deep breath, and not succumb to the temptation to throw your toys out of the pram. We're discussing a rather boring, inoffensive topic; there's no need to be rude about it.
Understand what's being said:
- No one disputes the eligibility laws don't apply through the age-groups (those that are FIFA-sanctioned at least; they have no bearing on, say U15, afaik), so there's no need to suggest I'm saying that. - your view on whether FIFA would apply a literal or purposive approach to interpretation of the relevant FIFA statutes is simply that, "your view". It's not the law, it's not been tested, and, for the reasons Terri outlined, departs from the actual wording of what the FIFA statutes say. It is therefore a grey area. I am merely repeating where this discussion got to 12 months ago. - As it happens, if it were tested, I (unlike Terri afaik) believe FIFA would agree with your view. But it's still just your view, (as well-considered and researched as it is). - I can't say that I know what the FAI's position on it is or whether they've definitely considered it. I do however find it odd that they never approach BPF, Jamal Lewis, George Saville or even Conor Washington at senior level - even for an exploratory chat. |
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Luis Amor Rodriguez
Liam Brady Joined: 19 Sep 2016 Location: Harchester Status: Offline Points: 1664 |
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O'Shea, tell us where this situation has been tested? Go back to Terri's post (maybe 5 pages back) and explain how the logic is incorrect. He's referred to the FIFA and Irish citizenship law there. Look it up, and you'll see that on a literal interpretation, he's right. There has not been any decision on this specific case, and so, given the competing view based on a literal interpretation, it is literally "undecided", or a grey area.
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SuperDave84
Robbie Keane ooh Thomas, how could you do this to me! Joined: 26 Aug 2011 Location: Far Fungannon Status: Offline Points: 21384 |
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I'm not sure we can say this. It could well be the case that they were quietly approached and said no. It could be that there was no point because the FAI knew they said no. It could be that the FAI didn't realise they were eligible until they were called up by NI.
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The O'Shea
Jack Charlton I know everything and I’m NEVER wrong Joined: 16 Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Status: Online Points: 9549 |
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It's not even relevant given all the other evidence, but you are of course right. The only reason we know Peacock-Farrell was approached is because he came out and said it (prior to that, Luis was pulling his hair out posting on here every other day about what a disgrace it was that the FAI hadn't approached him....) . It could well be exactly the same case with the likes of Saville, Lewis, etc.
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We're decent enough..
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Luis Amor Rodriguez
Liam Brady Joined: 19 Sep 2016 Location: Harchester Status: Offline Points: 1664 |
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Of course Dave. But to the best of our knowledge, what I have said is the case.
Edited by Luis Amor Rodriguez - 12 Jan 2019 at 6:15pm |
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Luis Amor Rodriguez
Liam Brady Joined: 19 Sep 2016 Location: Harchester Status: Offline Points: 1664 |
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BPF was approached by Noel King... as had previously been much discussed on here - that's hardly an approach which would inspire someone to join our side. Really MON and RK should have been dangling the carrot of senior football before him (particularly as around about that time we were playing a 30-something year old goalkeeper who's last transfer was for 50p). To the best of our knowledge (and these things usually get out one way or the other) none of these players were approached by senior management.
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coyne
Paul McGrath Joined: 17 Aug 2013 Location: Sunderland Status: Offline Points: 15881 |
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Has Will Buckley declared yet.
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