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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Conan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2018 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

There is a long list of players we've lost where there was no attempt by the senior set-up to get them into the fold at an early stage, even in a developmental capacity, at senior level.  

[[Amongst the many examples would be Michael Keane (no senior interest in him, but clearly the English seniors had a word, even when he was predominantly a reserve player at Utd), Grealish (no effort made when he was tearing up trees at Notts County - effort only made at senior level when he came to national prominence; too little, too late) and Ethan Ampadu (no evidence of any senior or even U21 attempt here, despite his Dad playing for Belvo and our U21s), or James Maddison, seemingly never contacted, now happily ensconced in England U21s.]]

We should have room for these young players in the senior squad, even unofficially or in a developmental capacity. 

The US, England, Wales, Scotland, Norn Iron do this, we used to sometimes do it, and, at least learning from lessons have done it with Rice who was called up in a developmental capacity to the Fota Island camp over a year ago, despite at the time having very little PL experience.  

But you don't get the impression that Martin or Roy are calling around to these players and expressing an interest in them.  Whereas Chris Coleman did and Michael O'Neill does, and the results are obvious.  You can bet that if Grealish, Maddison or Michael Keane had any Welsh links, they'd be capped for them, because the senior team would have shown an interest when it was an attractive option.  

We, on the other hand, wait without showing senior interest, and they get snapped up by England/Wales/US/Scotland, even NI!

No one is saying they don't need to earn their stripes. Lawrenson, Townsend, Holland and a long list of other players would most probably have played for England before us, given the chance.  However, once they were brought into the fold, their effort and commitment could never be questioned.

These players could be the difference between qualifying for tournaments and not.  It's no coincidence that our best teams over the years (particularly, 88, 90 and 94, with the possible exception of 2002) have had lots of dual-nationality players. 

But sure better to include a 31 yo from Millwall or Bohs who's not got any hope of appearing in a competitive international for us.  

Anyway, this argument's been had many times before here... 
Grealish and Keane have openly stated that it was their desire to play for England and not Ireland, that is the reason they made their choice, not the lack of opportunity for Ireland caps as obviously that would have been forthcoming long before they got in the England team. Maddison too dreams of playing for England and Ampadu has been strongly committed to Wales. 
You can't force or manipulate these guys in to playing for us, drug them and kidnap them, then wake them up on the pitch ready for their debut in a qualifier ; they'll do it if they want to and they feel its in their interests.  
I find it bizarre that anyone can accuse the FAI of not doing enough to recruit British players when their development strategy has always been focused largely on hoovering up as many english granny rulers in to the underage teams as they can get their hands on. If they want to stay there and, in the overwhelming majority of cases, aren't good enough to aspire to a senior career with England, then they'll stay. If not good luck to them following their heart Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NewtNewbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2018 at 5:27pm
I broadly agree with the post above. A lot of naivity is being displayed here, and we risk being left behind. Times change, and we need to alter our approach accordingly. We aren't even talking only about dual-qualified players any more but players who qualify for 3 nations or more. We cannot even simply expect Irish-born players to automatically play for us any more, it's becoming more complicated than that. We need to pursue a far more proactive strategy, Wales being the obvious example to follow. Their most recent squad makes for interesting viewing.

Edited by NewtNewbie - 23 May 2018 at 5:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Healy52003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2018 at 9:01pm
Feck sake Jack Grealish possibly going to Man United 

Why didn't we try and cap him early 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dugs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2018 at 9:29pm
Originally posted by Healy52003 Healy52003 wrote:

Feck sake Jack Grealish possibly going to Man United 

Why didn't we try and cap him early 
id believe that when i see it. Hes way off that top level.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DUBLIN DOC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2018 at 9:36pm
Originally posted by Healy52003 Healy52003 wrote:

Feck sake Jack Grealish possibly going to Man United 

Why didn't we try and cap him early 
You mean fckin kneecap him right
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gazurtoids Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2018 at 9:38pm
Originally posted by Dugs Dugs wrote:

Originally posted by Healy52003 Healy52003 wrote:

Feck sake Jack Grealish possibly going to Man United 

Why didn't we try and cap him early 

id believe that when i see it. Hes way off that top level.


Spurs signed Ali from L1 MK Dons....Grealish was a big player for Villa the season gone.....he's really progressing now in a way I didn't believe he would, we really missed the boat on him he's exactly the type of player this Irish team needs
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reddladd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2018 at 9:47pm
So what exactly were we supposed to do to with a lad who wanted to play for England? Kidnap him!
I could agree with you but then we'd both be wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Denis Irwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2018 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by reddladd reddladd wrote:

So what exactly were we supposed to do to with a lad who wanted to play for England? Kidnap him!

LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NewtNewbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2018 at 10:26pm
Originally posted by Healy52003 Healy52003 wrote:

Feck sake Jack Grealish possibly going to Man United 

Why didn't we try and cap him early 

That sounds a lot like implicit criticism of Martin O'Neill to me - we can't have that. Don't you realise he was once, many years ago, the manager of a foreign football club certain posters on here are fond of? What on earth has the defection of the outstanding young Ireland prospect of his generation got to do with the Irish management? What did you expect him to do? Try really hard to persuade him? Call him up early to ward off the advances of any predatory associations, like the Welsh do? Foster a style of play where a creative player like Grealish would feel comfortable and valued? Nuts! Why, you might as well blame O'Neill for the weather! Here, have another stupid laughing emoji LOL  and I hope you feel suitably chastened.


Edited by NewtNewbie - 30 May 2018 at 10:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Denis Irwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2018 at 10:33pm
Originally posted by NewtNewbie NewtNewbie wrote:

Originally posted by Healy52003 Healy52003 wrote:

Feck sake Jack Grealish possibly going to Man United 

Why didn't we try and cap him early 

That sounds a lot like implicit criticism of Martin O'Neill to me - we can't have that. Don't you realise he was once, many years ago, the manager of a foreign football club certain posters on here are fond of? What on earth has the defection of the outstanding young Ireland prospect of his generation got to do with the Irish management? What did you expect him to do? Try really hard to persuade him? Call him up early to ward off the advances of any predatory associations, like the Welsh do? Foster a style of play where a creative player like Grealish would feel comfortable and valued? Nuts! Why, you might as well blame O'Neill for the weather! Here, have another stupid laughing emoji LOL  and I hope you feel suitably chastened.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gazurtoids Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2018 at 11:04pm
Originally posted by reddladd reddladd wrote:

So what exactly were we supposed to do to with a lad who wanted to play for England? Kidnap him!


No too obvious, would attract too much attention



could have held his granny to ransom tho, she was here for an award ceremony once I believe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2018 at 11:54pm
Originally posted by NewtNewbie NewtNewbie wrote:

Originally posted by Healy52003 Healy52003 wrote:

Feck sake Jack Grealish possibly going to Man United 

Why didn't we try and cap him early 

That sounds a lot like implicit criticism of Martin O'Neill to me - we can't have that. Don't you realise he was once, many years ago, the manager of a foreign football club certain posters on here are fond of? What on earth has the defection of the outstanding young Ireland prospect of his generation got to do with the Irish management? What did you expect him to do? Try really hard to persuade him? Call him up early to ward off the advances of any predatory associations, like the Welsh do? Foster a style of play where a creative player like Grealish would feel comfortable and valued? Nuts! Why, you might as well blame O'Neill for the weather! Here, have another stupid laughing emoji LOL  and I hope you feel suitably chastened.

Spot on, 

Grealish could easily have been capped in the non-game (7-0 or something) against Gibraltar in the Aviva four years ago at a time when Grealish was tearing up trees in League One for Notts County whilst only 18 or something. 

It was beyond obvious to any interested Irish observer that (a) he was a fantastic prospect at that stage, (while England were showing no interest) and (b) England would start to show an interest as soon as his talents were broadcast to a wider audience.  

Fast forward to the Wembley FA Semi Final against Liverpool and word got out about how good he was - and Southgate was on to him.  Back in 2014, there is no reason to suggest he wouldn't have leapt at the chance of a senior call-up and a 5 min run out; and then gone on to have a great career for us.  He was as committed as any young player for us at that stage, having appeared for us all the way up, and England was not even a pipe-dream.

Meanwhile Wales are capping Woodburn, Harry Wilson and Ethan Ampadu (Dad from Dublin played for Belvo and Ireland U21s).  All lads who could go on to be huge players, potentially.

As for Grealish, he's the real deal - he was the best player in Wembley on Saturday (certainly Villa's best player by a distance).  I will be very surprised if he's not playing premier league soon and if he doesn't get an England cap sooner rather than later.  

Even yesterday, the Nordies are capping Shayne Lavery, a huge prospect at Everton; Peacock O'Farrell, Leeds' first choice keeper now and young; and Paul Smyth, the young, promising QPR winger.  

All these lads are eligible for us, and there is nothing to say that they'd like to represent us if we made some sort of an effort, particularly Lavery and Smyth who've both made positive soundings. 

And we seem to have made little or no positive effort to get these obvious talents on board, whereas Michael O'Neill is clearly on to them all the time, praising them in the media etc., in the same way Coleman was about the Welsh caps, or Strachen was about Ollie Burke. 

And who do we cap in our friendly games?  Lads in their 30s from Millwall and Bradford, and semi-pro set-ups like Shamrock Rovers.  The first two have almost no chance of appearing for us in a competitive game and the third is unlikely unless there is a significant change in circumstances. 

Whereas Ampadu, Smyth, Lavery, Peacock O'Farrell all have the obvious potential, like Grealish clearly had four years ago, of being good enough for our first team in the next few years.

And we're letting them all slip away and instead capping 30-something year old journey men.

Outside of Rice and the long-distance potential of our U17s, our pipeline is so depressing right now, and very little is being done to address it.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Denis Irwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2018 at 12:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2018 at 12:30am
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maccatacca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2018 at 12:34am
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Originally posted by NewtNewbie NewtNewbie wrote:

Originally posted by Healy52003 Healy52003 wrote:

Feck sake Jack Grealish possibly going to Man United 

Why didn't we try and cap him early 

That sounds a lot like implicit criticism of Martin O'Neill to me - we can't have that. Don't you realise he was once, many years ago, the manager of a foreign football club certain posters on here are fond of? What on earth has the defection of the outstanding young Ireland prospect of his generation got to do with the Irish management? What did you expect him to do? Try really hard to persuade him? Call him up early to ward off the advances of any predatory associations, like the Welsh do? Foster a style of play where a creative player like Grealish would feel comfortable and valued? Nuts! Why, you might as well blame O'Neill for the weather! Here, have another stupid laughing emoji LOL  and I hope you feel suitably chastened.

Spot on, 

Grealish could easily have been capped in the non-game (7-0 or something) against Gibraltar in the Aviva four years ago at a time when Grealish was tearing up trees in League One for Notts County whilst only 18 or something. 

It was beyond obvious to any interested Irish observer that (a) he was a fantastic prospect at that stage, (while England were showing no interest) and (b) England would start to show an interest as soon as his talents were broadcast to a wider audience.  

Fast forward to the Wembley FA Semi Final against Liverpool and word got out about how good he was - and Southgate was on to him.  Back in 2014, there is no reason to suggest he wouldn't have leapt at the chance of a senior call-up and a 5 min run out; and then gone on to have a great career for us.  He was as committed as any young player for us at that stage, having appeared for us all the way up, and England was not even a pipe-dream.

Meanwhile Wales are capping Woodburn, Harry Wilson and Ethan Ampadu (Dad from Dublin played for Belvo and Ireland U21s).  All lads who could go on to be huge players, potentially.

As for Grealish, he's the real deal - he was the best player in Wembley on Saturday (certainly Villa's best player by a distance).  I will be very surprised if he's not playing premier league soon and if he doesn't get an England cap sooner rather than later.  

Even yesterday, the Nordies are capping Shayne Lavery, a huge prospect at Everton; Peacock O'Farrell, Leeds' first choice keeper now and young; and Paul Smyth, the young, promising QPR winger.  

All these lads are eligible for us, and there is nothing to say that they'd like to represent us if we made some sort of an effort, particularly Lavery and Smyth who've both made positive soundings. 

And we seem to have made little or no positive effort to get these obvious talents on board, whereas Michael O'Neill is clearly on to them all the time, praising them in the media etc., in the same way Coleman was about the Welsh caps, or Strachen was about Ollie Burke. 

And who do we cap in our friendly games?  Lads in their 30s from Millwall and Bradford, and semi-pro set-ups like Shamrock Rovers.  The first two have almost no chance of appearing for us in a competitive game and the third is unlikely unless there is a significant change in circumstances. 

Whereas Ampadu, Smyth, Lavery, Peacock O'Farrell all have the obvious potential, like Grealish clearly had four years ago, of being good enough for our first team in the next few years.

And we're letting them all slip away and instead capping 30-something year old journey men.

Outside of Rice and the long-distance potential of our U17s, our pipeline is so depressing right now, and very little is being done to address it.  

Agree with everything you’ve said there, except the fact that our under-19s have some very talented players in and around the squad. 

Our medium to long term future looks quite positive when you look at our 17s and 19s. There’s also a few half decent prospects in our under-21s. 

I’d be expecting Josh Cullen and Ryan Manning to be senior squad members in the next two years while O’Hara genuinely seems to be a decent prospect and not just a young keeper who finds himself at a huge club. 

Completely agree regarding the approach being deployed by Northern Ireland, Wales and to a lesser extent Scotland. 

It’s almost as if we either don’t care about securing potentially talented youngsters or are just completely naive and think that we’ll be fine without them. 

MON couldn’t ignore Declan Rice because he’s just so far ahead of most 19 year olds in his development. 

The likes of Obafemi, Ogbene, Tom Field, Conor Ronan etc are players we should have at the very least training with our senior squad at the moment. We could very well avoid another Liam Kelly situation if lads are integrated at the right stage of their career. And obviously I’m aware that Ogbene said he’s hoping to play for Nigeria, but why not test his resolve? 

I’m not convinced that enough was done to convince Paul Smyth to play for his country either. The young lad grew up supporting Ireland and probably dreams of pulling on the real green jersey. But the North got there first and have forced his hand, will a youngster who’s just burst onto the scene at club level really risk turning down a further opportunity to get himself game time and exposure? 

The FAI and Ireland aren’t clever enough on or off the pitch at the moment and there doesn’t appear to be any leadership anywhere. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2018 at 12:49am
As for the Nordies, we should have no qualms about approaching dual-qualified players and look to have them involved with us.  

If there is any truth to this "gentlemen's agreement" whereby we don't contact players from the six counties, but they can happily tap up players who've come through our underage teams, then it needs to be torn up and pronto.  

They clearly have no problems going after lads who've played for us underage or even in B internationals, Sean Scannell and Niall Keown being the most recent examples.  

Meanwhile, we shouldn't be letting them secure granny rule players such as the likes of George Saville (handy 24 yo Millwall midfielder) or Jamal Lewis (20 yo Norwich left back) unchallenged.  The latest in a long list that includes Ollie Norwood, Conor Washington and Jamie Ward.  If Shaun Williams (31 yo Millwall player) has the ability of a cap for us, then Saville, a 24 yo for Millwall with his whole career ahead of him must have been an option worth considering (now capped competitively for NI unfortunately).

Either or both of Saville or Lewis (for example) could develop into solid PL performers over the next few seasons.

Meanwhile, it seems we were happy to sit back and let them declare for NI without even contacting them to see whether they would be interested in us or giving them the option...




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deise316 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2018 at 12:53am
The obsession here with lads that don't play for us is nearly at delusional level. It always increases when results are poor too. If MON did cap every single player mentioned above in a game, the same lads who populate these threads would name another 25 players before halftime and want all them capped in the next game. And another dozen the game after that.  Step away from the computer games lads, it doesn't happen in real life. It won't happen with MON, and it won't happen with whoever the next manager is either, or the one after that. 

But by all means dream away and keep posting the fantasy teams and compiling lists of players that will never kick a ball for us, mainly down to the fact that they either aren't good enough, or for some strange reason, want to play for another country such as the one they were born in, the oddballs. 






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2018 at 12:55am
Agree with all that Maccatacca.  

Having Shaun Williams in the squad for friendlies serves little purpose.  Having Connor Ronan or Ogbene or Obafemi, lads with real potential for the next five or six qualifying campaigns does.  Similar with Colin Doyle - get Peacock-Farrell or Conor Hazard in there instead.  Sure Peacock O'Farrell is already a better keeper on merit going on last season anyway!
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