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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irishmufc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2020 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

You think there is because of your own political opinions, and possibly theirs, but that is assumption, but the rule book doesn’t,   and can’t, differentiate.  It would be anarchy and not the kind I approve of. 
Whether they identify as Irish, British, Northern Irish, all three, none or Lebanese is irrelevant. In a footballing sense they were Northern Irish having been born and playing their football there growing up and eligible for the ROI; if anything could be up for debate it is their eligibility to play for us. I doubt you, or the lads themselves  would consider that fair? I certainly wouldn’t.

Opinion on the political  landscape of Ireland has nothing to do with it. Either a player can play for an association other than the one he was born in or he can’t. The other alternative, that he must be made to declare at an age that many people would consider unfair in a world where people have complex family trees. 
I broadly agree with FIFA’s rules. I think that they are close to being as fair as possible, regardless of how they may or may not impact us.

The only change I would advocate for like Kerr would be an earlier timeframe for a player to declare for the national team's U-21's and again I don't know what opportunity McClean & Duffy had or what presence the FAI had in the IFA's territory for them to play for Ireland at that time. How does it work nowadays? Would a promising underage player born in the IFA territory have to declare first he who wishes to play for before the FAI approach/get in contact with or are they actively scouting in the north for players from Nationalist backgrounds? 

It doesn't sit well with a part of me that a player can play through all the underage set ups for one association and then just declare at senior competitive for another and an 18/19 year old playing full time professional football should really know at that stage what country/football association they are going to represent particularly in the Irish context. That might seem a bit strict or unfair and I don't think it would have much support anyway.  

I know we benefit from this when we have several previous N.I. underage players playing for us more than they actually do apart from the one that got away Alex Bruce LOL.  


 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Green Cockade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2020 at 8:36pm
Sean Scannell and Niall Keown ( Martin's son ) have switched to NI too but unlike Alex still have no full caps to their names.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2020 at 9:12pm
Originally posted by IrishCanadian IrishCanadian wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by IrishCanadian IrishCanadian wrote:

Smallbone isn’t good enough for England unless he’s willing to hang around for 5 years to get possibly 1 cap. The top English youth coming through are easily better than him. 

Connor Ronan simply isn’t even close. There isn’t even a discussion there, he’s never playing for England. 

Joe Hodge is the only one good enough. 

Smallbone has broken through to playing Premier League football at 20 years of age; Hodge still has a hell of a long way to go before we can say the same for him. As things stand, Smallbone is in a much better position to play for Ireland or England than Hodge is.
He’s 20 with 2 appearances to his name, he hasn’t broken through to anything. 

Joe Hodge is one of the best players in his age group, Will Smallbone is nowhere near that. Being older doesn’t make you better. As things stand, thinking Smallbone has any chance of playing for England is just short of laughable. His competition is miles ahead. 

You are not understanding. Smallbone has already made the breakthrough, whereas Hodge hasn't. It's incredibly hard to make the breakthrough (especially at a team like Man City..) so there's still a massive amount of uncertainty around Hodge. Smallbone has already surpassed that "uncertainty" and is in a good position to take the next step towards establishing himself as a Premier League footballer. That automatically puts Smallbone way ahead of Hodge in terms of current likelihood to play international football.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ambush green Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2020 at 9:50pm
Smallbone had a great pre season only to pick up a serious injury which set him back 6 months so he actually did very well to get in to the 1st team squad at Southampton at a time Southampton were in great form in the premiership. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tetsujin1979 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2020 at 12:29am
Originally posted by Green Cockade Green Cockade wrote:

Sean Scannell and Niall Keown ( Martin's son ) have switched to NI too but unlike Alex still have no full caps to their names.
Scannell didn't switch, he was approached, but didn't make a decision either way
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaddyDaCulchie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2020 at 1:53am
Originally posted by tetsujin1979 tetsujin1979 wrote:

Originally posted by Green Cockade Green Cockade wrote:

Sean Scannell and Niall Keown ( Martin's son ) have switched to NI too but unlike Alex still have no full caps to their names.
Scannell didn't switch, he was approached, but didn't make a decision either way

Scannell did switch, it was in process when he got injured so no call yet but he did put in for it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zizu Kilbane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2020 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by IrishCanadian IrishCanadian wrote:

Smallbone isn’t good enough for England unless he’s willing to hang around for 5 years to get possibly 1 cap. The top English youth coming through are easily better than him. 

Connor Ronan simply isn’t even close. There isn’t even a discussion there, he’s never playing for England. 

Joe Hodge is the only one good enough. 

Smallbone has broken through to playing Premier League football at 20 years of age; Hodge still has a hell of a long way to go before we can say the same for him. As things stand, Smallbone is in a much better position to play for Ireland or England than Hodge is.

I'd agree with this, while Hodge is a fantastic prospect, I can't see him making the breakthrough at City. I could see him bounce around the lower leagues for a while. 

Smallbone should definitely be looked at in the Nations League 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Green Cockade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2020 at 6:59pm
Another one who has been mentioned previously is Mikey Johnston of Celtic. I think he may be eligible for us but I have no idea if there have ever been any moves made behind the scenes to gauge his interest, if any. As with all young players either currently in the loop or on the radar, I would have confidence in Kenny being on the ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cildaratown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2020 at 8:30pm
Originally posted by Green Cockade Green Cockade wrote:

Another one who has been mentioned previously is Mikey Johnston of Celtic. I think he may be eligible for us but I have no idea if there have ever been any moves made behind the scenes to gauge his interest, if any. As with all young players either currently in the loop or on the radar, I would have confidence in Kenny being on the ball.

There’s one poster here who is convinced that he’ll represent the Eire
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 50%lesssugar&salt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2020 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by cildaratown cildaratown wrote:

Originally posted by Green Cockade Green Cockade wrote:

Another one who has been mentioned previously is Mikey Johnston of Celtic. I think he may be eligible for us but I have no idea if there have ever been any moves made behind the scenes to gauge his interest, if any. As with all young players either currently in the loop or on the radar, I would have confidence in Kenny being on the ball.

There’s one poster here who is convinced that he’ll represent the Eire

LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaddyDaCulchie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2020 at 11:15pm
Smallbone wouldn't make England u21 team.  Lads like Todd Cantwell who has impressed for Norwich and almost full premier League season behind him struggles get a games and he is linked with Liverpool. This English u21 side is top heavy on talent who won u17 world cup, who have properly broke through at club level. Don't think Southgate is going to sniff around Smallbone
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Green Cockade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2020 at 12:40am
England do have some very good emerging midfielders but don't forget they headhunted Rice when he started to put some performances together. I think it's too early to predict Smallbone's potential but he is highly thought of at Southampton, a club with a good reputation for bringing through young players, and any 20yr old who can make a Premiership first team has to be out of the ordinary. He did so despite that bad injury and long lay off and scored on his debut. I would hate to see him or any other Premiership talent currently with Ireland going the way of Rice and ( probably ) Grealish. It can't happen with Obafemi and a similar tactical early cap for Smallbone would make sense for me if his star continues to rise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaddyDaCulchie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2020 at 1:14am
Originally posted by Green Cockade Green Cockade wrote:

England do have some very good emerging midfielders but don't forget they headhunted Rice when he started to put some performances together. I think it's too early to predict Smallbone's potential but he is highly thought of at Southampton, a club with a good reputation for bringing through young players, and any 20yr old who can make a Premiership first team has to be out of the ordinary. He did so despite that bad injury and long lay off and scored on his debut. I would hate to see him or any other Premiership talent currently with Ireland going the way of Rice and ( probably ) Grealish. It can't happen with Obafemi and a similar tactical early cap for Smallbone would make sense for me if his star continues to rise.

Rice and Grealish were 17 when they broke through at club level.  I think it's unlikely Smallbone will be on their radar. I prefer if we focus on getting our best team out rather than throwing around caps to every dual qualified player when Irish born lads like Knight and molumby probably more deserving at  this stage 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaddyDaCulchie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2020 at 4:03am
Eoghan O'Connell had a few sporadic appearances. Cillian Sheridan aswell but can't think of anyone else
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Green Cockade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2020 at 8:30am
There's Jim Goodwin and Darren O'Dea as well, and the odd one from NI such as Michael McGovern and Conor Hazard. With O'Connor, Connell, Coffey, Okoflex and Afolabi currently bubbling under, hopefully at least one or two of this current crop will come through though O'Connor has of course been capped already. Johnston would be a major acquisition if we can get him and the influence of Damien Duff, who has worked with him a lot, could well be key to that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2020 at 9:55am
Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

You think there is because of your own political opinions, and possibly theirs, but that is assumption, but the rule book doesn’t,   and can’t, differentiate.  It would be anarchy and not the kind I approve of. 
Whether they identify as Irish, British, Northern Irish, all three, none or Lebanese is irrelevant. In a footballing sense they were Northern Irish having been born and playing their football there growing up and eligible for the ROI; if anything could be up for debate it is their eligibility to play for us. I doubt you, or the lads themselves  would consider that fair? I certainly wouldn’t.

Opinion on the political  landscape of Ireland has nothing to do with it. Either a player can play for an association other than the one he was born in or he can’t. The other alternative, that he must be made to declare at an age that many people would consider unfair in a world where people have complex family trees. 
I broadly agree with FIFA’s rules. I think that they are close to being as fair as possible, regardless of how they may or may not impact us.

The only change I would advocate for like Kerr would be an earlier timeframe for a player to declare for the national team's U-21's and again I don't know what opportunity McClean & Duffy had or what presence the FAI had in the IFA's territory for them to play for Ireland at that time. How does it work nowadays? Would a promising underage player born in the IFA territory have to declare first he who wishes to play for before the FAI approach/get in contact with or are they actively scouting in the north for players from Nationalist backgrounds? 

It doesn't sit well with a part of me that a player can play through all the underage set ups for one association and then just declare at senior competitive for another and an 18/19 year old playing full time professional football should really know at that stage what country/football association they are going to represent particularly in the Irish context. That might seem a bit strict or unfair and I don't think it would have much support anyway.  

I know we benefit from this when we have several previous N.I. underage players playing for us more than they actually do apart from the one that got away Alex Bruce LOL.  


 
Sorry, I didn't see this.
 
The problem again is the mention of backgrounds and the like. None of it matters. They are eligible to play for the north, regardless of background,  and the north will want to pick their strongest team. Many players from the same backgrounds and areas as McClean and Duffy have happily stayed representing the north throughout their careers.  It is also very constrictive and would be extremely damaging for ourselves and the north if players were being forced to choose at a young age. In pretty much every other walk of life people can have two, or more, national identities sitting side by side. It is commonplace now, but in football, where people identify with teams nowhere near where they are from, some would say bizarrely,  people are forced to choose! And it is those with the strongest ideal of their own national identity that shouts loudest at others to decide clearly on theirs.
There are fellas who are forty and wouldn't know and they wouldn't care too much either. Not everyone has such a clear view of their nationality, or really has one,  even in the north. That gets complicated further by the fact this is just football! I can't remember if it was Neil Lennon who said they were happy to play for the north due to an IFA underage coach? I remember reading something along those lines about some 'nationalist' player. Regardless of who it it was, it gives an idea of the choices people have to make. I think the problem for a lot of NI fans regarding McClean, is that he seems to be very dismissive of the IFA in general since switching.
 You are simply putting your own view of the 'Irish question' and applying it across the board. There will be young lads who will grow up in the north who won't care about which Ireland they represent because of religion, ethnicity or plantations. They will choose based on coaching and career prospects, who their mates choose for or any of a number of reasons that have little to do with tribalism, anthems or flags. 
Most sane people, and I certainly don't include myself as such, haven't much of a problem with Jack Grealish playing for us underage and then going playing, or not playing, for England. He is still Irish and still English. 
National identity is complex and is even more complex in the north. Should those who consider themselves British only be forced to try and play for England? Do we refuse anyone who ticked Northern Irish on the census? Or do we just leave people choose what football team suits them more without turning it into us and them at every opportunity?
I think that is the fairest way and it would seem FIFA do too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote daithi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2020 at 9:57am
Originally posted by Mr Brick Mr Brick wrote:

One would think a club like Celtic, which so proudly touts its Irish roots (some might even say flaunts) would have a greater input in the senior Irish squad with players who come through its youth system. Are Liam Miller and Colin Healy (in the modern era) the only ones? McGeady was born in Scotland. Packie Bonner, I think, went straight to the reserves while, currently, Lee O'Connor arrived from Manchester Utd. 

Not a great return from an "Irish" club although the SPL is hardly football's euthopia.
Sure why don’t you fire up an oul list there of all the Irish players in Celtics youth system over a period of time, if you need help try Alex or Hans Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IrishCanadian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2020 at 11:33am
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by IrishCanadian IrishCanadian wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by IrishCanadian IrishCanadian wrote:

Smallbone isn’t good enough for England unless he’s willing to hang around for 5 years to get possibly 1 cap. The top English youth coming through are easily better than him. 

Connor Ronan simply isn’t even close. There isn’t even a discussion there, he’s never playing for England. 

Joe Hodge is the only one good enough. 

Smallbone has broken through to playing Premier League football at 20 years of age; Hodge still has a hell of a long way to go before we can say the same for him. As things stand, Smallbone is in a much better position to play for Ireland or England than Hodge is.
He’s 20 with 2 appearances to his name, he hasn’t broken through to anything. 

Joe Hodge is one of the best players in his age group, Will Smallbone is nowhere near that. Being older doesn’t make you better. As things stand, thinking Smallbone has any chance of playing for England is just short of laughable. His competition is miles ahead. 

You are not understanding. Smallbone has already made the breakthrough, whereas Hodge hasn't. It's incredibly hard to make the breakthrough (especially at a team like Man City..) so there's still a massive amount of uncertainty around Hodge. Smallbone has already surpassed that "uncertainty" and is in a good position to take the next step towards establishing himself as a Premier League footballer. That automatically puts Smallbone way ahead of Hodge in terms of current likelihood to play international football.

I’m not misunderstanding anything, Smallbone has two appearances at 20 years old. He hasn’t broke through anything. 

You are correct though, Hodge is an uncertainty just as with every talented youth player. Smallbone is more of a certainty. A certainty that he isn’t even close to being good enough to play for England’s senior side. That automatically puts him below Hodge. 
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