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daveyc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote daveyc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2019 at 2:48pm
'O'Riley is an England youth international and also eligible to represent both Denmark and Norway' per wiki
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djhegzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2019 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by daveyc daveyc wrote:

'O'Riley is an England youth international and also eligible to represent both Denmark and Norway' per wiki

ahh the Danish O'Riley's, would be cousins of the Delaneys
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Drumcondra 69er Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2019 at 3:13pm
Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

No.

Source?

Why do you need a source ffs other than instigating another pointless argument between the 2 of you.

He's played for England at every underage level and he's as Scouse as The Beatles. That's about it

Wouldn't John, Paul and George all have been eligible? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2019 at 4:49pm
Originally posted by Drumcondra 69er Drumcondra 69er wrote:

Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

No.

Source?

Why do you need a source ffs other than instigating another pointless argument between the 2 of you.

He's played for England at every underage level and he's as Scouse as The Beatles. That's about it

Wouldn't John, Paul and George all have been eligible? 

I was thinking that myself LOL
We're decent enough..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeclanDaly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2019 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by Green rebel Green rebel wrote:

Originally posted by DeclanDaly DeclanDaly wrote:

[QUOTE=Green rebel]I was recently recently told marcus browne with west ham on loan at Oxford is eligible to play for us,does anyone know if this is true,looks a fine a player .

Where did this rumour come from GR? Haven’t seen anything about it elsewhere. Fine player
[/QUOTE
His older brother played with Sunrab in London at school boys level and it was mentioned to me at the time he had irish connections with his grandparents,I'm still trying to find out is he a generation out,normally I could be told there's lads with irish connections but with no evidence,its the spelling of his surname makes me believe there's some truth and the Sunrab coach that told me is normally spot on.A bit of a messer when he was younger but who wasn't and has been very unlucky with injuries,can't believe he has never looked at by England at any underage level.]

Thanks GR. Very interesting 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2019 at 5:21pm
Chelsea U-23 midfielder Conor Gallagher is apparently eligible.
We're decent enough..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2019 at 8:07pm
Originally posted by Drumcondra 69er Drumcondra 69er wrote:

Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

No.

Source?

Why do you need a source ffs other than instigating another pointless argument between the 2 of you.

He's played for England at every underage level and he's as Scouse as The Beatles. That's about it

Wouldn't John, Paul and George all have been eligible? 
Yeah, I am sure they would have been.LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by Danny Invincible Danny Invincible wrote:

Hi Terri, I've been on a bit of a break from forums for a while, but a little birdie told me you were chasing after me. Yes, that's me on Foot.ie too, and I'm truly flattered that you've been trawling through Foot.ie threads on eligibility to read my posts. EmbarrassedHeart

Anyway, to the point, what exactly have I said that you perceive to be contradictory? What did I say in October of 2017 that is supposedly contradicted? It is my understanding that, for the purpose of applying article 7(c) in the Irish context, FIFA regard the entire island as the "territory" of the FAI; they apply a purposive interpretation rather than a literal one.

The purposive approach to legal, statutory or regulatory interpretation is not something I'm just making up either. It has a long history in the legal tradition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purposive_approach 
To save endless quote and re-quote threads, I'll deal with each of your points in separate posts (though it may take me a little time to get round to all of them).

Anyhow, thank you for the above reminder on "purposive interpretation", though it was neither necessary nor persuasive.

For as I think you must know, when judges or adjudicators are interpreting laws and regulations, their "default" approach is to construe the prima facie (pf) meaning unless they have some other reason for disregarding it.

The most obvious would be if there was a clear drafting mistake, though that cannot apply here, since FIFA keep repeating the "territorial" requirement (Wink) with each new version of the rules.

Alternatively, they might disregard it should the pf interpretation clearly contradict some other rule, but again, that doesn't apply.

Or they might do so if, eg, a pf reading produced a manifestly unfair or unintended outcome of some sort. Once again,. there is no evidence to that effect.

So to return directly to your "justification" of this purposive interpretation which you are claiming, it seems you are relying on three cases. In no particular order, you cite Alex Bruce, but as NIGreenwall has demonstrated, there is clear evidence that AB qualified via an ROI grandparent, namely as stated by a journo who interviewed AB, including direct quotations etc. The (ahem) prima facie interpretation must be that he got this ROI grandparent info directly from AB himself. Otherwise, why would he make it up? 

Next is Peacock-Farrell. All we really know is (a ) someone from the FAI spoke to BP-F, and (b ) BP-F informed him that he was quite happy playing for NI. Therefore it is entirely possible that the FAI guy (King?) was alerted to a possible eligibility by NI's involvement, but found that he only had an NI-born grandparent, so isn't eligible for ROI. Alternatively, BP-F may also have some valid ROI connection, but simply wasn't interested in switching. Either way, it would not be in the FAI's interests to disclose this, nor could we expect BP-F himself to understand the intricacies of international eligibility.

Finally, there is Adam Barton. Sure, he got competitive international caps for ROI at under-age level. But that was nearly a decade ago, and there have been no like repetitions since, despite candidates like Jamal Lewis and George Saville. So it is possible that he, too, was eligible some other way which we don't know about (like Bruce), or it is possible that his selection was a mistake - I'm sure Associations do get it wrong occasionally, whether it is picked up on or not.

Above all, even when you approached the FAI directly, they declined to specify how/why Barton was eligible, when they might simply have provided you with the basis for his selection. Your idea that there may be some sort of "confidentiality" involved doesn't really hold up, since such evidence must be a matter of public record - eg Register of Foreign Births, Passport, Birth Certificate etc. And in any case, they could still have provided a statement of general principle, without referring to specific individuals.

More generally, your case falls down (imo) since you are actually putting the cart before the horse here. For the correct sequence must be to discern the purpose first, then apply the interpretation, not try to reverse the process. Which means you cannot claim that since Barton was picked by the FAI, therefore it must be FIFA's purpose to treat NI as part of the FAI's territory.

I mean, what other evidence do you have to construct such a purpose, either for the FAI/IFA, or any other disputed jurisdiction? The fact that eg Derry City needed IFA permission to play in the ROI league, or that Magheraveely FC needed permission to use a ground in Monaghan, clearly suggests that the jurisdictional boundaries are unambiguous and established. Or the fact that players need "international clearance" when transferring from ROI to NI (or v.v.) is also evidence. Or consider the fact that eg FIFA turned down Jack Charlton's request to avoid the usual requirement of arriving in the away country at least 24 hours in advance of that game in November 1993. Were NI to fall within the FAI's "jurisdiction", why wouldn't any part of the 32 counties have sufficed?

Above all, after the split in 1921, clubs in the Falls League in West Belfast, including Alton United FC, affiliated to the FAI (also Belfast Celtic, for a period?), but in 1923, the IFAB made it a condition of admission to FIFA that the FAI confine their operation to the Free State,  a condition that the FAI had indeed first proposed itself, so as to smooth the way! 
Consequently, this meant that the Falls League was disaffiliated and Belfast Celtic rejoined the Irish League/IFA:
(Btw, if you're not happy with a Wiki source, further confirmation of this point is to be found in Cormac Moore's book, "The Irish Soccer Split", see esp Chapter 12)  



Edited by Territorial - 21 Jan 2019 at 7:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martiponti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 10:31pm
I never knew there were 2 teams in Ireland.Why is thati
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2019 at 4:56pm
Conor Gallagher, 18 year old centre mid for Chelsea's Premier League 2 team, is eligible for us.

Also eligible for Scotland.  Currently plays underage football for England and in the squad that won the U17 World Cup a while back: https://www.chelseafc.com/en/teams/academy/conor-gallagher ;
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danny Invincible Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 2:17am
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Danny Invincible Danny Invincible wrote:

Hi Terri, I've been on a bit of a break from forums for a while, but a little birdie told me you were chasing after me. Yes, that's me on Foot.ie too, and I'm truly flattered that you've been trawling through Foot.ie threads on eligibility to read my posts. EmbarrassedHeart

Anyway, to the point, what exactly have I said that you perceive to be contradictory? What did I say in October of 2017 that is supposedly contradicted? It is my understanding that, for the purpose of applying article 7(c) in the Irish context, FIFA regard the entire island as the "territory" of the FAI; they apply a purposive interpretation rather than a literal one.

The purposive approach to legal, statutory or regulatory interpretation is not something I'm just making up either. It has a long history in the legal tradition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purposive_approach 
To save endless quote and re-quote threads, I'll deal with each of your points in separate posts (though it may take me a little time to get round to all of them).

Anyhow, thank you for the above reminder on "purposive interpretation", though it was neither necessary nor persuasive.

For as I think you must know, when judges or adjudicators are interpreting laws and regulations, their "default" approach is to construe the prima facie (pf) meaning unless they have some other reason for disregarding it.

The most obvious would be if there was a clear drafting mistake, though that cannot apply here, since FIFA keep repeating the "territorial" requirement (Wink) with each new version of the rules.

Alternatively, they might disregard it should the pf interpretation clearly contradict some other rule, but again, that doesn't apply.

Or they might do so if, eg, a pf reading produced a manifestly unfair or unintended outcome of some sort. Once again,. there is no evidence to that effect.

So to return directly to your "justification" of this purposive interpretation which you are claiming, it seems you are relying on three cases. In no particular order, you cite Alex Bruce, but as NIGreenwall has demonstrated, there is clear evidence that AB qualified via an ROI grandparent, namely as stated by a journo who interviewed AB, including direct quotations etc. The (ahem) prima facie interpretation must be that he got this ROI grandparent info directly from AB himself. Otherwise, why would he make it up? 

Next is Peacock-Farrell. All we really know is (a ) someone from the FAI spoke to BP-F, and (b ) BP-F informed him that he was quite happy playing for NI. Therefore it is entirely possible that the FAI guy (King?) was alerted to a possible eligibility by NI's involvement, but found that he only had an NI-born grandparent, so isn't eligible for ROI. Alternatively, BP-F may also have some valid ROI connection, but simply wasn't interested in switching. Either way, it would not be in the FAI's interests to disclose this, nor could we expect BP-F himself to understand the intricacies of international eligibility.

Finally, there is Adam Barton. Sure, he got competitive international caps for ROI at under-age level. But that was nearly a decade ago, and there have been no like repetitions since, despite candidates like Jamal Lewis and George Saville. So it is possible that he, too, was eligible some other way which we don't know about (like Bruce), or it is possible that his selection was a mistake - I'm sure Associations do get it wrong occasionally, whether it is picked up on or not.

Above all, even when you approached the FAI directly, they declined to specify how/why Barton was eligible, when they might simply have provided you with the basis for his selection. Your idea that there may be some sort of "confidentiality" involved doesn't really hold up, since such evidence must be a matter of public record - eg Register of Foreign Births, Passport, Birth Certificate etc. And in any case, they could still have provided a statement of general principle, without referring to specific individuals.

More generally, your case falls down (imo) since you are actually putting the cart before the horse here. For the correct sequence must be to discern the purpose first, then apply the interpretation, not try to reverse the process. Which means you cannot claim that since Barton was picked by the FAI, therefore it must be FIFA's purpose to treat NI as part of the FAI's territory.

I mean, what other evidence do you have to construct such a purpose, either for the FAI/IFA, or any other disputed jurisdiction? The fact that eg Derry City needed IFA permission to play in the ROI league, or that Magheraveely FC needed permission to use a ground in Monaghan, clearly suggests that the jurisdictional boundaries are unambiguous and established. Or the fact that players need "international clearance" when transferring from ROI to NI (or v.v.) is also evidence. Or consider the fact that eg FIFA turned down Jack Charlton's request to avoid the usual requirement of arriving in the away country at least 24 hours in advance of that game in November 1993. Were NI to fall within the FAI's "jurisdiction", why wouldn't any part of the 32 counties have sufficed?

Above all, after the split in 1921, clubs in the Falls League in West Belfast, including Alton United FC, affiliated to the FAI (also Belfast Celtic, for a period?), but in 1923, the IFAB made it a condition of admission to FIFA that the FAI confine their operation to the Free State,  a condition that the FAI had indeed first proposed itself, so as to smooth the way! 
Consequently, this meant that the Falls League was disaffiliated and Belfast Celtic rejoined the Irish League/IFA:
(Btw, if you're not happy with a Wiki source, further confirmation of this point is to be found in Cormac Moore's book, "The Irish Soccer Split", see esp Chapter 12)  



I'm still none the wiser as to what I'd supposedly said to contradict myself.

Nobody has claimed there's been a drafting mistake, so I don't know what the wink emoticon is all about, as if you've caught me out or something. I'm fully aware the article in question specifies the term "territory" and have never denied this to be the case.

Please point out to me where Alex Bruce is quoted as having stated that he has or had a grandparent from the Republic. I don't think such a quote exists, unless I've missed it. As far as I can see, it's the journalist who states this to be so, but that does not necessarily make it a certainty. It is of course possible that the journalist picked something up incorrectly while assuming that Bruce would have needed separate grandparents from both sides of the border in order to qualify for the two teams simultaneously.

Nobody has made the claim that FIFA regard the entire island of Ireland as the administrative territory of the FAI. The argument is simply this: for the purposes of the eligibility rules, FIFA regard the term "territory" in article 7 to mean the territory over which Irish nationality law - the nationality law relevant to the FAI - applies.

Your last two paragraphs there are thus irrelevant, seeing as nobody's claiming that the entire island is the administrative territory of the FAI. The administrative territory of the FAI is the 26 counties. The administrative territory of the IFA is the north-eastern six counties. There is no dispute or ambiguity over administrative territory or jurisdiction (seeing as territorial jurisdiction is not the same thing as the application of nationality law, which can be extra-territorial).

I have Cormac Moore's book. I'm not unfamiliar with the history of that period and the origin of the FAI, established to replace the IFA as the national association rather than to technically split from it and co-exist.

If you want to dream up conspiracy theories as to how Adam Barton ended up playing competitively for us on four separate occasions over the course of a full year despite supposedly not being eligible, fire away. I think it's deluded, but we're all entitled to our delusions. So what if it was ten years ago? The same rule was still in effect. And the reason why there haven't been any cases since...? Well, maybe it's because there really aren't that many cases of players with a northern-born grandparent who'd be good enough, or even known about, in order to be selected by the FAI in the first place.

You can discard Jamal Lewis from your paltry list of "candidates", by the way, as his mother is from Belfast, so he'd be an Irish national from birth if he wished to acknowledge his entitlement, meaning article 7 would never have applied to him had the FAI been interested or been aware of his potential eligibility. Were the FAI aware of the background of George Saville before the IFA were? You've no idea.

A lack of information coming from the FAI isn't evidence of anything, just as the fact Alex Bruce hasn't replied to me isn't evidence of anything. The FAI have always been quite cagey and reticent any time I've gotten in touch with them. I suspect there's probably a culture within the association that would be suspicious enough of journalists or curious outsiders making detailed enquiries, particularly on contentious issues, seeing as the Irish media have never been on the best of terms with the FAI. John Delaney doesn't allow questions to be asked at the FAI's AGM, for example.

The FAI don't disclose personal player details, I suspect, because it's none of their business to be discussing or divulging player's personal details. This was the same for Alex Bruce and Noe Baba when I sought information as to how specifically each player was eligible; they merely confirmed that the two players were fully eligible and refused to go into any further detail. Even on that occasion, they told me that I would have to communicate with FIFA for further information as to how article 7 should be interpreted. They would neither confirm nor deny whether my own reading was correct.

My belief that the term "territory" in article 7 refers to the territory over which the nationality law of the association concerned applies is based on the fact that Adam Barton, whose only connection to this island, as far as we know, is a northern-born grandparent, played for us in four competitive fixtures. Therefore, I think it is reasonable to assume he was and is fully eligible for the FAI. Assuming aforementioned information is correct, he can only have qualified through his northern-born grandparent and, seeing as he would have acquired Irish nationality after birth, then it is reasonable to assume that he qualified under article 7, which makes a "territory" stipulation. Since his grandparent was born on the island of Ireland, but outside the administrative territory of the FAI, then it must be the case that FIFA regard the term "territory" in article 7(c) as referring to the territory over which the nationality law relevant to the FAI and Barton applies. That is my reasoning and I think it's pretty solid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danny Invincible Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 2:28am
I should also add that England-born former NI under-21 international Carl Magnay was eligible to play for us via northern grandparantage. He never played for us competitively but he had had intentions of switching at one point (so obviously understood himself to be eligible) until injury disrupted his hopes. Can't recall if he's been mentioned already.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerry Geary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 5:35pm
Tommy Mcnamara of Houston Dynamo 28
is he good enough?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amccarten313 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by Gerry Geary Gerry Geary wrote:

Tommy Mcnamara of Houston Dynamo 28
is he good enough?
 
seen him play a few times in mls, wouldn't say he would really improve things. would much rather have someone like Curtis in the squad
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by Danny Invincible Danny Invincible wrote:

Nobody has claimed there's been a drafting mistake, so I don't know what the wink emoticon is all about, as if you've caught me out or something.
The wink was a 'tip of the hat' to the word "territorial", nothing more, nothing less.

Originally posted by Danny Invincible Danny Invincible wrote:

Please point out to me where Alex Bruce is quoted as having stated that he has or had a grandparent from the Republic. I don't think such a quote exists, unless I've missed it. As far as I can see, it's the journalist who states this to be so, but that does not necessarily make it a certainty. It is of course possible that the journalist picked something up incorrectly while assuming that Bruce would have needed separate grandparents from both sides of the border in order to qualify for the two teams simultaneously.
Your suggested explanation* (in bold) is just possible, I suppose. 

But much more likely than such an "assumption" is that in talking to him, Bruce disclosed that he had two Irish grandparents, inc one from ROI, and the journalist merely reported that.


* - Perhaps the journalist was making some sort of "purposive" interpretation for his assertion? LOL

Originally posted by Danny Invincible Danny Invincible wrote:

Nobody has made the claim that FIFA regard the entire island of Ireland as the administrative territory of the FAI. The argument is simply this: for the purposes of the eligibility rules, FIFA regard the term "territory" in article 7 to mean the territory over which Irish nationality law - the nationality law relevant to the FAI - applies.
What evidence do you have for suggesting that FIFA makes a distinction between Administrative rights and Jurisdictional rights over a territory? Where else have they ever done this? Why was the Falls League required by FIFA to disaffiliate from the FAI as a condition of the FAI's admission to FIFA, when the FAI had already been (ahem) administering it for a period?
Quite simply, if the FAI has "jurisdiction" over NI, why aren't they allowed also to administer the game the game there? After all, it's not as if the FAI never wanted administrative rights over NI. Rather it's precisely what they demanded - and were denied - at the time of the split.
Like your "purposive interpretation" claim, this alleged distinction appears to me to be an exercise in barrel-scraping, to get you to the place where you want to be, rather than the place to where the Rules clearly point.

Originally posted by Danny Invincible Danny Invincible wrote:


Your last two paragraphs there are thus irrelevant, seeing as nobody's claiming that the entire island is the administrative territory of the FAI. The administrative territory of the FAI is the 26 counties. The administrative territory of the IFA is the north-eastern six counties. There is no dispute or ambiguity over administrative territory or jurisdiction (seeing as territorial jurisdiction is not the same thing as the application of nationality law, which can be extra-territorial).
Nationality law is a matter for governments - FIFA recognises and accepts that, which is why they take from it when it comes to international eligibility, where Nationality is an inevitable element. 

But the jurisdiction, governance and administration of the game is solely within their remit, which is why they uniformly reject interference by governments in these areas.

Originally posted by Danny Invincible Danny Invincible wrote:


Your last two paragraphs there are thus irrelevant, seeing as nobody's claiming that the entire island is the administrative territory of the FAI. The administrative territory of the FAI is the 26 counties. The administrative territory of the IFA is the north-eastern six counties. There is no dispute or ambiguity over administrative territory or jurisdiction (seeing as territorial jurisdiction is not the same thing as the application of nationality law, which can be extra-territorial).
You are really stretching it here, when you now make a distinction between "territorial jurisdiction" and (the application of) "nationality law".
After all, the whole basis for your claim that the FAI has jurisdiction over NI* is that it follows from the ROI's nationality laws!  

Or maybe you're claiming the Irish government's ability to offer Nationality to people from NI also gives it jurisdiction over NI, and by extension gives the FAI footballing jurisdiction over the IFA's territory?

I mean, why not go the whole hog, and claim Nationality Law = Territorial Jurisdiction = Administrative Jurisdiction? 


* - You can type "NI", by the way, can't you? After all, it's so much quicker and easier than "the north-eastern six counties", and I'm sure we'll all know where you mean. LOL

Originally posted by Danny Invincible Danny Invincible wrote:

I have Cormac Moore's book. I'm not unfamiliar with the history of that period and the origin of the FAI, established to replace the IFA as the national association rather than to technically split from it and co-exist.
Exactly! 

The FAI was originally set up in order to claim complete jurisdiction over the whole of the island of Ireland, territory, administration and all, and FIFA knocked them back, thereby enforcing the split. And in the course of doing so, the FAI renounced its previous claim to jurisdiction over NI, otherwise they would have been excluded by FIFA.

That argues towards my case, not yours! LOL

Originally posted by Danny Invincible Danny Invincible wrote:

If you want to dream up conspiracy theories as to how Adam Barton ended up playing competitively for us on four separate occasions over the course of a full year despite supposedly not being eligible, fire away. I think it's deluded, but we're all entitled to our delusions. So what if it was ten years ago? The same rule was still in effect. 
With your "purposive interpretation" claim, or your "Jurisdictional" vs "Administrative" theory, I think it is you who is veering towards conspiracy territory (no pun intended, and no wink included), not I.

For it needs no "conspiracy" simply to suggest that Barton may have qualified by some other means, or that a simple mistake/misunderstanding of the rules was made, which has not been repeated in the near decade since. 

Originally posted by Danny Invincible Danny Invincible wrote:

And the reason why there haven't been any cases since...? Well, maybe it's because there really aren't that many cases of players with a northern-born grandparent who'd be good enough, or even known about, in order to be selected by the FAI in the first place.
 
With the same rule still being in place, surely the FAI could have found at least one other such player, of a similar standard to Adam Barton, to play for your U-19's say?

Originally posted by Danny Invincible Danny Invincible wrote:

You can discard Jamal Lewis from your paltry list of "candidates", by the way, as his mother is from Belfast, so he'd be an Irish national from birth if he wished to acknowledge his entitlement, meaning article 7 would never have applied to him had the FAI been interested or been aware of his potential eligibility. Were the FAI aware of the background of George Saville before the IFA were? You've no idea.
OK, JL accepted. 
As for GS, the FAI surely had enough contacts/players at Millwall to be alerted by the IFA's interest and make enquiries? After all, the whole process can take some time, and the FAI can move quickly enough* when they want to. 


* - When James McClean was called up by NI for a competitive full international - AND ACCEPTED - a late transfer swoop by Sunderland accorded sufficient time for the FAI to intervene and suddenly remind James that there was another Irish international team in existence, and not just any old Irish team, but the only one he would ever consider playing for! LOL

Originally posted by Danny Invincible Danny Invincible wrote:

A lack of information coming from the FAI isn't evidence of anything, just as the fact Alex Bruce hasn't replied to me isn't evidence of anything. The FAI have always been quite cagey and reticent any time I've gotten in touch with them. I suspect there's probably a culture within the association that would be suspicious enough of journalists or curious outsiders making detailed enquiries, particularly on contentious issues, seeing as the Irish media have never been on the best of terms with the FAI. John Delaney doesn't allow questions to be asked at the FAI's AGM, for example.
Either that, or they simply reached for the old "Oh no, not him again" email reply! 

(That's a joke, btw. Or maybe not.)

Originally posted by Danny Invincible Danny Invincible wrote:

The FAI don't disclose personal player details, I suspect, because it's none of their business to be discussing or divulging player's personal details. This was the same for Alex Bruce and Noe Baba when I sought information as to how specifically each player was eligible; they merely confirmed that the two players were fully eligible and refused to go into any further detail. Even on that occasion, they told me that I would have to communicate with FIFA for further information as to how article 7 should be interpreted. They would neither confirm nor deny whether my own reading was correct.
There can be no breach of confidentiality to make a simple, general declaration that eg "The FAI is entitled to select any player solely on the basis of a grandparent born in NI" (Or "the six northeastern counties of the island", if you insist Tongue).

In fact, there is no reason whatever why they could not simply say that "Adam Barton is eligible to represent the FAI due to his having a grandparent from Belfast".

After all, that information is already in the public domain from when he represented NI, and can hardly be said to be disclosing personal information which he would not want repeated. 

Indeed, one might almost consider that their refusal to make such a simple, inoffensive statement might actually be covering up something?

Or would that be being, ahem, conspiratorial? Wink

Originally posted by Danny Invincible Danny Invincible wrote:

My belief that the term "territory" in article 7 refers to the territory over which the nationality law of the association concerned applies is based on the fact that Adam Barton, whose only connection to this island, as far as we know, is a northern-born grandparent, played for us in four competitive fixtures. Therefore, I think it is reasonable to assume he was and is fully eligible for the FAI. Assuming aforementioned information is correct, he can only have qualified through his northern-born grandparent and, seeing as he would have acquired Irish nationality after birth, then it is reasonable to assume that he qualified under article 7, which makes a "territory" stipulation. Since his grandparent was born on the island of Ireland, but outside the administrative territory of the FAI, then it must be the case that FIFA regard the term "territory" in article 7(c) as referring to the territory over which the nationality law relevant to the FAI and Barton applies. That is my reasoning and I think it's pretty solid.
Hmmm.

In googling something else just now, I came across this commentator on the matter, who opined as follows:

"After the entry of the IFA into FIFA in 1946, the FAI had acknowledged that the whole of the island did not fall under its jurisdiction. Prior to this, both associations had claimed to be the game's governing body throughout the whole of the island. Meanwhile, the IFA were still claiming jurisdiction over the  entire island with regard to "Home Nations" games up until FIFA issued their 1951 dictat. Whilst recognising that its jurisdiction lay only within the confines of the territory of the state the Republic of Ireland, it is clear, however, that no corresponding dictats - to those aforementioned - with regard to the eligibility of Northern Ireland-born Irish nationals to play for the FAI were ever issued to the FAI. Indeed, whilst accepting that the territory of Northern Ireland was the realm of the IFA, there was never any acceptance by the FAI or remote indication by FIFA that Irish nationals, regardless of where they were born, would ever fall outside the sphere of the FAI's selection licence."

Damn! 

If only he had thought to make a distinction between "territorial jurisdiction" vs "administrative jurisdiction", rather than framing the question as a distinction between "player eligibility" and (simple) "jurisdiction", we might have had the answer to our conundrum.
 


Edited by Territorial - 23 Jan 2019 at 6:06pm
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PaddyDaCulchie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaddyDaCulchie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 6:19pm
Go argue somewhere else, turning this thread into muck
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 6:42pm
Originally posted by PaddyDaCulchie PaddyDaCulchie wrote:

Go argue somewhere else, turning this thread into muck
Yeah, it was absolutely superb reading before.LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr. Snrub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 7:41pm
Territorial is incredibly boring on this forum. Always takes things too far Wacko
"Here's Robbie Keane...... yeeeessss! That is no more than Ireland deserve!"
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