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Jack Charlton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 2:50pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Should that be so, then FIFA may consider this person to be "acquiring a new nationality" (i.e. other than that the country of birth eg Australia, UK etc). And FIFA's rules are clear that for anyone acquiring a new nationality, the grandparent would have to have been born on the territory of the new Association which the grandchild wishes to represent. Therefore if the grandparent(s) was born in NI, then the relevant association would be the IFA, not the FAI.

I should add that I'm by no means certain about this, and although there may have been one or two individuals capped by the FAI at under-age level who did not satisfy this test (Adam Barton?), they may have been an oversight?

In any case, I'm pretty sure it has never been tested at "A" (senior) international level, for a competitive game at least.

There's no "possibly" about this. We went through it ad infinitum around a year ago and definitive evidence was provided to you repeatedly by both myself and Danny Invincible which you simply chose not to accept... Your refusal to accept it does not change the finality of the evidence, however, no matter how much you might wish it did.
Unless you can point to a clear flaw in my argument; or you can point to a specific adjudication; or until it is properly tested by an actual example, you cannot claim that it is "definitive".

I am saying it could still go either way.

UPDATE:

Is there another "Danny Invincible" out there? Or has your DI changed his tune since October 2017?

For here is what he posted on another site, wrt Conor Tee of Leicester City, son of an English-born mother, whose own mother (CT's grandmother) was Mayo-born (my emphasis):

From Danny Invincibile Mk.I - 
[Conor's] uncle's statement is technically correct. He's quoted as saying:

"[Conor] wants to play for Ireland and the Leicester Under 18 manager has been in contact with the FAI. If he was to play, he would actually qualify through his granny as Maureen [his mother] was born in England before we moved home not long after."

Tee's mother is an automatic Irish national from birth on account of the fact that she was born to Irish citizens who were born in Ireland - I don't think the uncle is denying that - but as she herself was not born in Ireland, Tee's birth would have to be registered in the Foreign Births Register for him to acquire Irish citizenship. The article 7 criteria would apply to him then as he isn't a national from birth and the only criterion he satisfies is 7(c), relating to grandparentage from the territory of the relevant association.

(See also Article 7, page 71, of the relevant FIFA Regulations: https://resources.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/generic/02/78/29/07/fifastatutsweben_neutral.pdf )


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 3:47pm
Well, on Gabriel's point, his kids would be eligible to play for Ireland, undoubtedly. Gabriel is (presumably) an Irish citizen born in Ireland (on the island). As such, his kids are automatically eligible. It doesn't matter where on the island Gabriel is born.

I appreciate there is a gray area if Gabriel's *grandkids* rather than his *kids* (the original question) wanted to play for Ireland *and* if Gabriel was born in Northern Ireland. That specific matter has not been tested (that is, a person whose only link to Ireland is a grandparent Irish citizen who was born in Northern Ireland). That is the O'Shea's question, and is as yet unanswered, afaik. However, a person born to *parents* who are Irish citizens who were born in Northern Ireland is eligible, and automatically a citizen, given that those people are citizens from birth who do not have to register on the foreign births register.


Edited by SuperDave84 - 11 Jan 2019 at 3:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Denis Irwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

Well, on Gabriel's point, his kids would be eligible to play for Ireland, undoubtedly. Gabriel is (presumably) an Irish citizen born in Ireland (on the island). As such, his kids are automatically eligible. It doesn't matter where on the island Gabriel is born.

I appreciate there is a gray area if Gabriel's *grandkids* rather than his *kids* (the original question) wanted to play for Ireland *and* if Gabriel was born in Northern Ireland. That specific matter has not been tested (that is, a person whose only link to Ireland is a grandparent Irish citizen who was born in Northern Ireland). That much is correct. However, a person born to *parents* who are Irish citizens who were born in Northern Ireland is eligible, and automatically a citizen, given that those people are citizens from birth who do not have to register on the foreign births register.


Alex Bruce (Even if he did switch to the North) Granny was from Down IIRC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 3:51pm
Originally posted by Denis Irwin Denis Irwin wrote:

Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

Well, on Gabriel's point, his kids would be eligible to play for Ireland, undoubtedly. Gabriel is (presumably) an Irish citizen born in Ireland (on the island). As such, his kids are automatically eligible. It doesn't matter where on the island Gabriel is born.

I appreciate there is a gray area if Gabriel's *grandkids* rather than his *kids* (the original question) wanted to play for Ireland *and* if Gabriel was born in Northern Ireland. That specific matter has not been tested (that is, a person whose only link to Ireland is a grandparent Irish citizen who was born in Northern Ireland). That much is correct. However, a person born to *parents* who are Irish citizens who were born in Northern Ireland is eligible, and automatically a citizen, given that those people are citizens from birth who do not have to register on the foreign births register.


Alex Bruce (Even if he did switch to the North) Granny was from Down IIRC


Correct. However, I believe the FIFA eligibility criteria were changed after his friendly appearances, and players from before then were presumably grandfathered in (excuse the use of grandfather here, everyone knows what a grandfather clause is).

Edit: actually the FIFA rules were changed in 2004 and Alex Bruce played for Ireland first in February 2006. Dunno how that happened.


Edited by SuperDave84 - 11 Jan 2019 at 3:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

Well, on Gabriel's point, his kids would be eligible to play for Ireland, undoubtedly. Gabriel is (presumably) an Irish citizen born in Ireland (on the island). As such, his kids are automatically eligible. It doesn't matter where on the island Gabriel is born.
Yes, you're right about Gabriel's kids being eligible for ROI and regardless of which part of the island he's from. (I misdirected myself following his reference to "2nd generation", which I took to mean the 2nd generation to be born outside Ireland. Also, The O'Shea's follow-up claim that Gabriel's children and grandchildren would be eligible.)

Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

I appreciate there is a gray area if Gabriel's *grandkids* rather than his *kids* (the original question) wanted to play for Ireland *and* if Gabriel was born in Northern Ireland. That specific matter has not been tested (that is, a person whose only link to Ireland is a grandparent Irish citizen who was born in Northern Ireland). That is the O'Shea's question, and is as yet unanswered, afaik.
I agree it is unanswered, and I wouldn't bet any money on it either way.

The O'Shea, however, seems certain that such grandkids are OK to represent ROI, not least because his mate Danny Invincibile thinks so.  (YBIG).

Or doesn't (foot.ie). Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

Originally posted by Denis Irwin Denis Irwin wrote:

Alex Bruce (Even if he did switch to the North) Granny was from Down IIRC


Correct. However, I believe the FIFA eligibility criteria were changed after his friendly appearances, and players from before then were presumably grandfathered in (excuse the use of grandfather here, everyone knows what a grandfather clause is).

Edit: actually the FIFA rules were changed in 2004 and Alex Bruce played for Ireland first in February 2006. Dunno how that happened.
Not sure how it happened myself.

But the possibility remains that the FAI initially got it wrong, thus explaining why he never got a competitive* cap, only in friendlies. 


* - Any Association may pick whoever they like for friendlies, but aren't ever going to select someone who they know is not eligible for competitive games, for obvious reasons.


Edited by Territorial - 11 Jan 2019 at 4:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Should that be so, then FIFA may consider this person to be "acquiring a new nationality" (i.e. other than that the country of birth eg Australia, UK etc). And FIFA's rules are clear that for anyone acquiring a new nationality, the grandparent would have to have been born on the territory of the new Association which the grandchild wishes to represent. Therefore if the grandparent(s) was born in NI, then the relevant association would be the IFA, not the FAI.

I should add that I'm by no means certain about this, and although there may have been one or two individuals capped by the FAI at under-age level who did not satisfy this test (Adam Barton?), they may have been an oversight?

In any case, I'm pretty sure it has never been tested at "A" (senior) international level, for a competitive game at least.

There's no "possibly" about this. We went through it ad infinitum around a year ago and definitive evidence was provided to you repeatedly by both myself and Danny Invincible which you simply chose not to accept... Your refusal to accept it does not change the finality of the evidence, however, no matter how much you might wish it did.
Unless you can point to a clear flaw in my argument; or you can point to a specific adjudication; or until it is properly tested by an actual example, you cannot claim that it is "definitive".

I am saying it could still go either way.

The clear flaw(s) in your argument were tirelessly laid out for you already, you still chose to ignore them. The easiest way to sum it up is with two simple examples; Alex Bruce and Adam Barton.
We're decent enough..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NIGreenWall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 4:57pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Should that be so, then FIFA may consider this person to be "acquiring a new nationality" (i.e. other than that the country of birth eg Australia, UK etc). And FIFA's rules are clear that for anyone acquiring a new nationality, the grandparent would have to have been born on the territory of the new Association which the grandchild wishes to represent. Therefore if the grandparent(s) was born in NI, then the relevant association would be the IFA, not the FAI.

I should add that I'm by no means certain about this, and although there may have been one or two individuals capped by the FAI at under-age level who did not satisfy this test (Adam Barton?), they may have been an oversight?

In any case, I'm pretty sure it has never been tested at "A" (senior) international level, for a competitive game at least.

There's no "possibly" about this. We went through it ad infinitum around a year ago and definitive evidence was provided to you repeatedly by both myself and Danny Invincible which you simply chose not to accept... Your refusal to accept it does not change the finality of the evidence, however, no matter how much you might wish it did.
Unless you can point to a clear flaw in my argument; or you can point to a specific adjudication; or until it is properly tested by an actual example, you cannot claim that it is "definitive".

I am saying it could still go either way.

The clear flaw(s) in your argument were tirelessly laid out for you already, you still chose to ignore them. The easiest way to sum it up is with two simple examples; Alex Bruce and Adam Barton.


How many times has it so be said that Alex Bruce qualifies for the ROI through his ROI born grandparent on his mothers side irrespective of the NI born grandparent on his fathers side.

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/bruce-junior-plots-irish-future-19280

Adam Barton as you correctly say has no ROI link and played for your U21's based on his NI born grandparent, as far as the FAI are concerned there is no difference, FIFA don't look into the intricacies of all its members citizenship laws so it would be up to the IFA to raise a query with FIFA to see if the FAI's policy is correct or not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Should that be so, then FIFA may consider this person to be "acquiring a new nationality" (i.e. other than that the country of birth eg Australia, UK etc). And FIFA's rules are clear that for anyone acquiring a new nationality, the grandparent would have to have been born on the territory of the new Association which the grandchild wishes to represent. Therefore if the grandparent(s) was born in NI, then the relevant association would be the IFA, not the FAI.

I should add that I'm by no means certain about this, and although there may have been one or two individuals capped by the FAI at under-age level who did not satisfy this test (Adam Barton?), they may have been an oversight?

In any case, I'm pretty sure it has never been tested at "A" (senior) international level, for a competitive game at least.

There's no "possibly" about this. We went through it ad infinitum around a year ago and definitive evidence was provided to you repeatedly by both myself and Danny Invincible which you simply chose not to accept... Your refusal to accept it does not change the finality of the evidence, however, no matter how much you might wish it did.
Unless you can point to a clear flaw in my argument; or you can point to a specific adjudication; or until it is properly tested by an actual example, you cannot claim that it is "definitive".

I am saying it could still go either way.

The clear flaw(s) in your argument were tirelessly laid out for you already, you still chose to ignore them. The easiest way to sum it up is with two simple examples; Alex Bruce and Adam Barton.
NI GreenWall has just dealt with your Bruce example, while it is entirely possible that Barton was never eligible, since it has not actually been challenged.

Any other examples? You know, from the dozens of potential players to whom this NI granny application might apply?

No hurry, btw. For I'm actually more interested in your comment on the Danny Invincibile quotation I dug out from foot.ie, where he contradicted his own and your assertion on this matter. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horsebox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 5:35pm
Jimmy Dunne and Michael O'Connor are 2 other players currently being poached by the O'Neill.

I'm sure there are many others.

Bottom line is O'Neill is poaching players from the ROI no matter what spin you put on it.
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na na na na na na na na na
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Denis Irwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Jimmy Dunne and Michael O'Connor are 2 other players currently being poached by the O'Neill.

I'm sure there are many others.

Bottom line is O'Neill is poaching players from the ROI no matter what spin you put on it.


Now now Horsey don't be bringing facts into this that undermine Terri LOL


Edited by Denis Irwin - 11 Jan 2019 at 5:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 5:43pm
You've done it now HB. You've done the thing he's most allergic to and provided facts.

He'll now beat you down with irrelevant numbers and articles, prepare yourself LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 5:51pm
Fact is, for all the abuse you're giving Terri, he's correct. 

The selection of players apparently eligible for Ireland solely through a NI born grandparent is a grey area for the reasons he concisely and cogently points out about 3 pages back - just look at the wording of the various FIFA statutes and ROI citizenship rules (if you want good bed-time reading material).  

AFAIK, no such player has played a competitive senior international for ROI.  

However, if it were tested, my expectation is that a fudge would be made and the player would be ruled eligible. 

I appreciate we're re-hashing a discussion that was done to death here a year or so ago.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:


I appreciate we're re-hashing a discussion that was done to death here a year or so ago.  

That's the only purpose this thread has served tbh. Re-hashing players who were talked about years ago LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Jimmy Dunne and Michael O'Connor are 2 other players currently being poached by the O'Neill.

I'm sure there are many others.

Bottom line is O'Neill is poaching players from the ROI no matter what spin you put on it.
Michael is speaking to foreign-born players who, assuming they qualify for British nationality, are then eligible to represent the IFA by virtue of their NI-born grandparent(s).

Whereas we are talking about foreign-born players who as Irish nationals are looking to represent the FAI without having the requisite ROI-born grandparent(s) (or Irish born parents).

Either you lack the intelligence to see the difference, or the integrity to accept it, but whichever it is, you're only making yourself look silly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Fact is, for all the abuse you're giving Terri, he's correct. 

The selection of players apparently eligible for Ireland solely through a NI born grandparent is a grey area for the reasons he concisely and cogently points out about 3 pages back - just look at the wording of the various FIFA statutes and ROI citizenship rules (if you want good bed-time reading material).  

AFAIK, no such player has played a competitive senior international for ROI.
Thank you.

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

However, if it were tested, my expectation is that a fudge would be made and the player would be ruled eligible. 
Cannot agree, since a "fudge" is bound to antagonise at least one party (in this case the IFA), and worse, would only encourage other Associations to demand their own "fudge", in disputed cases.

With the Kearns case, for instance, the CAS came down on the side of the FAI only, since that accorded with their strict interpretation of FIFA's rules - i.e. no "fudge" there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 7:25pm
Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

You've done it now HB. You've done the thing he's most allergic to and provided facts.

He'll now beat you down with irrelevant numbers and articles, prepare yourself LOL
Well it's tempting, but even I bow down to the superior "beating down" qualities of your very own Danny Invincibile in such matters.

Speaking of whom.... Wink

Is there another "Danny Invincible" out there? Or has your DI changed his tune since October 2017?

For here is what he posted on another site, wrt Conor Tee of Leicester City, son of an English-born mother, whose own mother (CT's grandmother) was Mayo-born (my emphasis):

From Danny Invincibile Mk.I - 
[Conor's] uncle's statement is technically correct. He's quoted as saying:

"[Conor] wants to play for Ireland and the Leicester Under 18 manager has been in contact with the FAI. If he was to play, he would actually qualify through his granny as Maureen [his mother] was born in England before we moved home not long after."

Tee's mother is an automatic Irish national from birth on account of the fact that she was born to Irish citizens who were born in Ireland - I don't think the uncle is denying that - but as she herself was not born in Ireland, Tee's birth would have to be registered in the Foreign Births Register for him to acquire Irish citizenship. The article 7 criteria would apply to him then as he isn't a national from birth and the only criterion he satisfies is 7(c), relating to grandparentage from the territory of the relevant association.

"The lines are open, and I'm waiting for your call, Danny!" LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 8:16pm
Jaysis Terri, talk about waiting in the long grass for poor Danny...

Stalking the poor fooker through various websites so you can nail him on here LOL


Edited by Luis Amor Rodriguez - 11 Jan 2019 at 8:17pm
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