Waterford may go. |
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planning
Ray Houghton Football version of Comical Ali. Joined: 17 Mar 2012 Status: Offline Points: 3836 |
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A club goes "bust" when it goes under. Neither Rovers nor Shels went bust, but faced the consequences of failure on the pitch and mismanagement off it. They sorted themselves out and are back in the top division, as are Cork and Derry. Waterford have to do the same. If it takes 5 years or 50 years for them to do it, so be it.
I would rather expand the first division to 12/14 clubs and let them play home and away once, with an extended mid-season break. The clubs who make up the expansion are introduced to the league at low-cost, while the others who were there before, only have to travel to far-flung places once a year. The top flight clubs have to play during the summer because of Europe. The lower division clubs don't have to. |
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deiseblue
Liam Brady Joined: 20 Apr 2012 Location: Dublin Status: Offline Points: 1021 |
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I really wish I could agree with you as I think that at the time it would have been a huge mistake if Rovers had been ejected from the League. The facts are however different - Rovers frauduently submitted 2003 accounts for season 2005 & as such should have been summarily thrown out - however common sense prevailed & they were given time to sort themselves out - which to their immense credit they did. Waterford's argument at the very least deserves the same consideration in their attempt to survive , particularly as they never ( as I have already pointed out ) so flagrantly breached FAi regulations as did the Hoops & Shels |
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planning
Ray Houghton Football version of Comical Ali. Joined: 17 Mar 2012 Status: Offline Points: 3836 |
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Rovers couldn't have been thrown out of the 2005 season, as it had already started by the time the result of it was applied. Instead the club lost it's licence, were deducted 8 points, and Waterford stayed up.
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Shoco
Roy Keane Hail Hail the Celts are here Joined: 14 Dec 2008 Location: Celthick Park Status: Offline Points: 13727 |
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eh no, the fai kept waterford up in 2006 by not relegating them despite them losing the relegation/promotion play off, galway would have benifited from shelbournes demotion but that whole story is for a different thread |
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deiseblue
Liam Brady Joined: 20 Apr 2012 Location: Dublin Status: Offline Points: 1021 |
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Of course they could have been thrown out - it would have caused huge disruption but the league would have continued as it did when Mons packed up mid season. Rovers of all clubs must surely realise that their continued existence is due to the forbearance of the FAI & the good will of other Dublin clubs including their avowed foes - the Boheeez who made their grounds available to the Hoops during their 22 homeless years to ensure their future as a club. The moral high ground is not a fit place for Rovers to occupy in this argument , given their recent history their attitude should surely be - there but for the grace of God go I. |
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roverstillidie
Jack Charlton Bohs number 1 fan Joined: 25 Jun 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8529 |
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Rovers didn't go bust, effectively or really. We took our medicine, sorted it out and are now the best supported club side on the island. Should we apoligise for this?
But we never, ever, tried to blackmail the FAI into changing the league structure due to our failure to get a permanent home in those 22 years. Bohs let us play in Dalyer because they needed the money, not out of sporting ecumenism. You are inferring the stance you think Rovers are taking is done to spite you. Oh dear.
There is no moral high ground. One newspaper article SPECULATED Rovers would be opposed to importing the first division problems into the Premier. It is exceptionally unfair, and if I might suggest a tactical blunder, to turn this into a Rovers (or whoever) versus the rest dispute. You have a version for Irish football that suits your club. Rovers, it is reported as gossip, have another. Spare me the drama in claiming that Rovers following their interests is somehow malicious when you are doing the same. Quite frankly, your failure to get promoted 6 years on the spin is not the rest of ours problem There are legitimate arguments for and against what you are proposing. But there is a stench of using the boardroom to do what you failed time and time again to achieve on the pitch, despite having essentially the same help as Rovers in terms of a good, municipal facility. If you turn this into the pissy fight your club seem to be gearing up to turn it into, then the rest will close ranks.
Edited by roverstillidie - 28 Aug 2012 at 11:08pm |
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roverstillidie
Jack Charlton Bohs number 1 fan Joined: 25 Jun 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8529 |
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What forbearance from the FAI? Other than backing us up versus the bigots, we got hee haw from them, starting with refusing to buy Milltown a couple of years after buying Dalyer. Spare us. Grace of God my hole. We are where we are through hard work, learning the hard way, good luck and talented people in the right place at the right time. This is so petty and pathetic its unreal.
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roverstillidie
Jack Charlton Bohs number 1 fan Joined: 25 Jun 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8529 |
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Don't waste your time with facts. The reason Waterford are where they are is because Rovers are out to get them. Or something
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deiseblue
Liam Brady Joined: 20 Apr 2012 Location: Dublin Status: Offline Points: 1021 |
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Waterford are , to my mind , correctly pointing out that a 1 tier League May be the way to go - sure it may be in the Blues best interests to do so but that does not necessarily diminish the argument. The reason that I particularly referenced Rovers was due to your comment that Waterford could ask your " rope " & I got the distinct impression that Waterford may get a more reasonable response from the FAI than from your " rope " - the forbearance that I referred to shown by the FAI towards Rovers was when Rovers fraudulently lodged 2003 accounts for the 2005 season ( I do apologise for seemingly repeating this point ad nauseam ) - but it's an important point & let's hope the FAI & league clubs show the same sense of forbearance & understanding when it comes to discussing the League set up for next season & thereafter. I think Waterford have outlined the financial implications for the club vis a vis the putative 1st Division set up next season & as such I think their stance smacks more of realism than blackmail . |
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Wheelo
Liam Brady Joined: 09 Sep 2010 Location: Drogheda Status: Offline Points: 2327 |
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I must say, fair play to Really wish more clubs would stand up and speak out! The league is an absolute joke – it has never been so bad in the last 25 years – and it’s just getting worse. Something drastic has to be done – if things are left as they are its just going to keep getting worse –so anything is worth a try at this stage A 1 division league for a couple of years is worth a go, nothing to lose by trying! (though I obviously also do see the disadvantages of it too)–with strict conditions for club to get their house in order – or at least to be trying to get their house in order as some will take longer than others– eg no matter what a clubs income is, only 10% of income should be allowed be spent on wages, 30% on ground improvement fund, 30% on youth set ups, etc – not saying those exact figures, but you get the idea (and may be different percentages for clubs on off the pitch stuff, but I’d stick with the same % of income on wages for all clubs – and keep it at a low %). Do that for 3 years or so, then go back to the 2 division league with hopefully some other junior clubs like tralee or cobh been able to join up! (and have the same strict expenditure restrictions) |
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"Not surprised you are anti foreigner in your so called Kip of a town when you don’t want a manager because he is Swedish and you want big Sam in charge" - a fine post from a fine ybig poster
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roverstillidie
Jack Charlton Bohs number 1 fan Joined: 25 Jun 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8529 |
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They are doing more than pointing out. They have threatened to leave senior football if it doesn't happen.
There are merits to the proposal, but massive flaws too. And you are dismissing those who think there are flaws as being self interested, whereas your self interest is grand!?!
How was an effective relegation and removal of the board 'forebearance'?
Lets hope they do what is in the interests of the league and as many clubs as possible, not the vested interests of some smaller clubs who have failed to achieve on the pitch.
Tough. You think its all champagne and cigars in the PD? A badly run club is a badly run club.
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roverstillidie
Jack Charlton Bohs number 1 fan Joined: 25 Jun 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8529 |
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Wheelo, has this not all been done?
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Wheelo
Liam Brady Joined: 09 Sep 2010 Location: Drogheda Status: Offline Points: 2327 |
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You talking about the aul uefa licensing? It’s not the same as to what I’m proposing. And uefa licensing isn’t properly enforced I don’t care if its ucd turning over 50k a year or rovers turning over 2 million a year – every club should only be allowed spend a very small percentage of their income on wages say. Even clubs that have a good stadium, or who don’t have any stadium of their own but rent and don’t need any urgent ground improvements – should still have to contribute 30% (or similar) of income into the clubs ‘stadium fund’ which can only be used on ground improvements,etc (or even to help get their own ground) even if none of it is spent til 5 years down the line And a smililar % into a proper youth set up – and % set aside for promoting the club locally, pr inititatives,etc Bascially f*** all allowed be spent on players wages – but off the pitch things for the medium/long term future of clubs! A 1 division league would take the pressure off clubs for a couple of years and to take the above conditions in their stride – then hopefully it will be the new ‘club culture’ and when the league goes back to a 2 division league, clubs will be more stable and used to not been able to spend f*** all of their income on wages to chase the dream! (and hopefully a few more junior clubs like tralee and cobh would be in the league then aswel!) I genuinely think f*** all of clubs incomes should be allowed be spent on players wages! It should also be a max of 10euro entrance fee, with under 12s allowed in for nothing. 15e is too much in these tough financial times for people |
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"Not surprised you are anti foreigner in your so called Kip of a town when you don’t want a manager because he is Swedish and you want big Sam in charge" - a fine post from a fine ybig poster
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roverstillidie
Jack Charlton Bohs number 1 fan Joined: 25 Jun 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8529 |
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Why should a club like Rovers who spend the budgets of most 1st Division clubs on community football already be limited to 10% of turnover on wages?
If Waterford can't compete on 65% of wages in a municipal stadium, they won't be able to on 10%.
That will drive on the field standards back 50 years. But kudos for thinking outside the box. You are right that clubs should spend more on stadia, but you can't make them either.
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deiseblue
Liam Brady Joined: 20 Apr 2012 Location: Dublin Status: Offline Points: 1021 |
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It should be pointed out that the Blues never threatened to leave the League - the board simply pointed out that it may prove financially impossible to sustain the club in the first division given next season's likely line up.
Let's not kid ourselves regarding the forebearance shown to Rovers - they knowingly & fraudulently lodged the wrong accounts in order to gain the appropriate license - for which they could have been ejected from the Leaue. I happen to think that the FAI took the right course of action in showing clemency as nobody wanted to see a club with Rovers long tradition cast into oblivion. Equally I think Waterford's proposal that a 1 tier league may be the way forward deserves every consideration & I am heartened to see that most contributors to this thread seem to think that this proposal has merit. |
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roverstillidie
Jack Charlton Bohs number 1 fan Joined: 25 Jun 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8529 |
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And some other clubs equally as validly can point out that losing games against Rovers, Pats and Cork and replacing them with Mervue, Salthill and Wexford will have massive financial impact on them.
There were no prescribed punishment. They could have been expelled from the league. So could Derry, Cork and Shels. The FAI don't expell clubs. We didn't get a favour - we got a fair punishment in line with precendent.
That was never on the table.
And the counter that its a bad proposal has merit. But you are personalising this as big bad Rovers deliberatley bankrupting you for evil reasons. If you don't think you can survive next season of course everyone will try and come to a solution. But if it isn't the one you want, spare us the conspiracy theory. Have you any justification for your plan beyond 'we are fecked, we want PD gates, tv money and prizemoney and we want it without getting promoted'?
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Wheelo
Liam Brady Joined: 09 Sep 2010 Location: Drogheda Status: Offline Points: 2327 |
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Of course you can. What I’m suggesting is that these are strict financial rules that every club must sign up to to join the 1 division league. If you over estimated in year 1, your punishment could be that you spend an even lower % on last years figures on wages than other clubs the following year Why should a club like Rovers who spend the budgets of most 1st Division clubs on community football already be limited to 10% of turnover on wages? Because no matter how much they’re spending, it is still not enough. Not having nearly enough effect (despite leading the way by a mile compared to the other clubs in the league). Maybe there could be a case that they could spend a bit extra on youth set up instead if approved by the leagues board – but the one thing that should never be allowed any compromise on is clubs % of income spent on wages It is the same with clubs that don’t need ground improvements – some are lucky to rent top class grounds, others aren’t so lucky and own and have to pay for their own ground improvements- for those that don’t need ground improvements straight away, at least they’ll have built up a fund to do ground improvements when needed down the line (which they will need eventually) or maybe even to contribute to build their own stadium. Clubs been proactive rather than reactive, mad idea ain’t it! That will drive on the field standards back 50 years Increase in on the field standards definitely does not mean an increase in league attendances. This has been proved over the years. The standard on the pitch is the worst it has been since 2008 – and is currently only getting worse. The league would only lose a handful of players by having this strict wage constraints (as majority wouldn’t be good enough for lower leagues in Maybe then with the increase in funding towards clubs youth set ups, we would finally see some improvement n the pitch a few years down the line – that would be the idea. Until clubs, wake up and do something drastic like this – the league will never have a chance of progressing and the same problems are going to keep coming up, but in different decades |
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"Not surprised you are anti foreigner in your so called Kip of a town when you don’t want a manager because he is Swedish and you want big Sam in charge" - a fine post from a fine ybig poster
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roverstillidie
Jack Charlton Bohs number 1 fan Joined: 25 Jun 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8529 |
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Hold up. Rovers spend a fortune on youth development. Rovers spend a fortune on community football. Rovers pay a fortune in rent. We still have enough left over to put money away after paying around 54% of our turnover on wages. Why should we go basically amateur and completely opt out of Europe because smaller clubs need protecting from competition? 65% of turnover for wagesis a good number. 10% is bananas. |
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