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Waterford may go.

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Ray Houghton
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    Posted: 03 Sep 2012 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by deiseblue deiseblue wrote:


 & we have seen the demise of every Cork club to date



Albert Rovers and Evergreen United (Cork Celtic) still play in Cork. I know what ya mean though


If Waterford pull out, there'll be a domino effect, there'd have to be, Harps have feck all money and financial planning would show them it's not their while. Should Dundalk go down, they'd fell the same.
'The younger generation as in 17 -25 are certainly gayer than their predecessors. I think they may cause the extinction of the human race with their activities.'- Baldrick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roverstillidie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2012 at 2:24pm
Lads, your concern for Tony McGuire is truly touching.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UCDFAN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2012 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by TBWRA TBWRA wrote:

The LSL side also went belly up last year as they had no money  ,thats keeping it in the community alright

Worser than that.  shamrock rovers had taken over the name a successful Junior club Tallaght Town in the 1990's.
But there was a serious dislike from a large number board members of the new shamrock rovers in 2005.  The LSL club was allowed disintegrate with no playing staff and was relegated from the LSL after the  the club didn't fulfill about half a dozen of it's last matches in the season.
A goup of coaches, re-energised the club and they got entry in Leinster junior football and got promotion back up to the LSL (fourth tier) about three years ago coaches wondered outloud whether it it would better to return to Tallaght Town FC as there was no connection Financially, Culturally, Ultra-Amorically from the LoI club.  The LSL club competed for another couple of years in LSL, using the dilapidated ground off Kiltipper Road. At the start of last years Winter Season 2011/12 the LSL club tried to get funding, support from the LoI club but none was forthcoming.  They decided not to compete in the upcoming season.

Subsequently, including  unrelated meetings in Abbotstown board members of the LoI club have made derogatory comments about staff involved with the former LSL club.  True Story.

As UCD AFC (LoI) and UCD (LSL) are linked at the head, hip and foot, UCD Fans get double the amount of gossip fans of either League get.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TBWRA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 2:39pm
Originally posted by roverstillidie roverstillidie wrote:

Originally posted by TBWRA TBWRA wrote:

 
Will you get off the stage
 
What's wrong with you now?
 
Didn't one of the lads on MNS say last season that Rovers spend on matchday security and stewarding is more than some 1st division clubs entire budget. You know what will happen if you let Mervue into the PD on a pass. The league will split into 4 camps. The full time clubs - Rovers, Sligo and Derry, the alternating between full and part time, Bohs, Pats, Cork, Dundalk, the always part time, UCD, Drogs, Shels and then the amateurs in Wexford, SD, Mervue. The latter will get eaten week in week out by the former two. We could literally have 10 goal wins twice a month.
 
Wheelo's proposals have merit, but his figures are waaaay off. 10% of turnover on salary?
The LSL side also went belly up last year as they had no money  ,thats keeping it in the community alright


Edited by TBWRA - 29 Aug 2012 at 2:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wheelo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by roverstillidie roverstillidie wrote:

 
Wheelo's proposals have merit, but his figures are waaaay off. 10% of turnover on salary?
 

In fairness, I did say in an earlier post that I wasn’t saying those exact figures. I was throwing them out there to give examples.

 

But I do think the percentage of income on wages should be very low – much less than half anyway, 30% maybe – but nowhere near half! I do belive something drastic like that has to happen, or it will be the same old same old for the league – same problems cropping up,etc

 

I don’t agree with the point that it would hold back ‘well run’ clubs who may be seen to be ‘progressing’. It would certainly have an effect on the pitch for the 2 or 3 full time teams on the pitch at first – but I think what I am proposing would seriously progress these clubs further off the pitch –and ultimately (hopefully) after a few years would see the benefits of much improved youth set ups, bigger attendances, bigger sponsorship, more income,etc – and a much better standard on the pitch for all clubs in the league!

 

(for the record, I do see the disadvantages of a 1 division league – and believe it will be a wasted opportunity when it happens and wont work as those running the league won’t enforce something like I’ve suggested above. We’ll still see the same problems,etc – it’s like been stuck in a time wharp being a loi supporter!!)

"Not surprised you are anti foreigner in your so called Kip of a town when you don’t want a manager because he is Swedish and you want big Sam in charge" - a fine post from a fine ybig poster
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roverstillidie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by TBWRA TBWRA wrote:

 
Will you get off the stage
 
What's wrong with you now?
 
Didn't one of the lads on MNS say last season that Rovers spend on matchday security and stewarding is more than some 1st division clubs entire budget. You know what will happen if you let Mervue into the PD on a pass. The league will split into 4 camps. The full time clubs - Rovers, Sligo and Derry, the alternating between full and part time, Bohs, Pats, Cork, Dundalk, the always part time, UCD, Drogs, Shels and then the amateurs in Wexford, SD, Mervue. The latter will get eaten week in week out by the former two. We could literally have 10 goal wins twice a month.
 
Wheelo's proposals have merit, but his figures are waaaay off. 10% of turnover on salary?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roverstillidie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 1:15pm
I'm not in the least thinking short term. The opposite.

There are two fundamental problems with the 1 league proposal. One, it allows clubs who have not earned it to have a crack at the big boys, and the weight of resources will crush them - remember Kilkenny in the 1990's, and secondly that teams with no threat of relegation will lose ambition, happy to rake in the money and use it to spend on other aspects of their club. Think Home Farm.
 
I get the stability argument, but what you are asking Wheelo is that well run clubs who are progressing, and they exist, should be held back to make it easier for badly run clubs to compete. Never going to happen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wheelo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by TBWRA TBWRA wrote:

Will you get off the stage
 

I was going to say the exact same.

 

65% is far far to big,when one considers the state of the league and the clubs in the league (I don’t want to signal out clubs but I am including rovers in that too – its pathetic the support they get, the results of their youth set up, the fact they cant dictate what happens to their ground,etc). All great on loi comparison obviously – but still not good enough.  If you are spending fortunes on youth development and community projects at the moment, you are certainly not showing any real benefits to date.

 

In fact, rtid’s attitude is one of the reasons why the league will never progress – people thinking short term on the pitch.

 

The whole league and all clubs have to think long term – if money is going to be continuously wasted on players wages, instead of significantly increasing investment in youth, regular pr initiatives, off the pitch infrastructure,etc we may aswel just forget about it and admit the league is never going to progress –but just get worse.

 

We don’t pay much more than expenses for players – and I’m quite happy with the standard and the entertainment value from our team this season! In fact, our team today is more entertaining than what we played under doolin when our wages budget was into 7 figures!



Edited by Wheelo - 29 Aug 2012 at 1:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TBWRA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by roverstillidie roverstillidie wrote:

Hold up. Rovers spend a fortune on youth development. Rovers spend a fortune on community football. Rovers pay a fortune in rent. We still have enough left over to put money away after paying around 54% of our turnover on wages.

Why should we go basically amateur and completely opt out of Europe because smaller clubs need protecting from competition?

65% of turnover for wagesis a good number. 10% is bananas.

 
Will you get off the stage
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deiseblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 12:33pm
RTID expressed the view that " Waterford can ask my rope " when it comes to a proposed restructuring to a 1 tier League which is a valid point of view from a Rovers fan.

It is not a question of singling out Rovers for approbation but it is a response to the " ask my rope comment " by pointing out that Rovers were a shambles not so long ago & it was only due to the FAI that they were allowed to continue - it is , as I said previously , a credit to Rovers that they have turned matters around & are an example of how a club should be run .


I am simply pointing out that Rovers have been treated more than fairly by the league as indeed have Shels & Derry as all 3 clubs could have been ejected from the league to the detriment of the league & Waterford's proposal to ensure their future deserves every consideration - lets hope John Delaney , the FAI & the league clubs do give restructuring careful consideration.

After all most LOI clubs in the past have encountered financial difficulties & we have seen the demise of every Cork club to date , Dublin City , Galway Utd. , Kildare , Mons etc. - perhaps it is time to change the status quo & fair play to the Blues for raising the matter.

It should be pointed out that Waterford run a tight ship & have never knowingly or frauduently breached guidelines but foresee financial difficulties ensuing from the likely 1st Division line up next season ( if they are in it ) - I would expect that the other clubs in the division foresee similar problems.

Edited by deiseblue - 29 Aug 2012 at 12:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roverstillidie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 12:23pm

Hold up. Rovers spend a fortune on youth development. Rovers spend a fortune on community football. Rovers pay a fortune in rent. We still have enough left over to put money away after paying around 54% of our turnover on wages.

Why should we go basically amateur and completely opt out of Europe because smaller clubs need protecting from competition?

65% of turnover for wagesis a good number. 10% is bananas.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wheelo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 11:58am
Originally posted by roverstillidie roverstillidie wrote:

You are right that clubs should spend more on stadia, but you can't make them either.
 

Of course you can. What I’m suggesting is that these are strict financial rules that every club must sign up to to join the 1 division league.

 

If you over estimated in year 1, your punishment could be that you spend an even lower % on last years figures on wages than other clubs the following year

 

Why should a club like Rovers who spend the budgets of most 1st Division clubs on community football already be limited to 10% of turnover on wages?

 

Because no matter how much they’re spending, it is still not enough. Not having nearly enough effect (despite leading the way by a mile compared to the other clubs in the league). Maybe there could be a case that they could spend a bit extra on youth set up instead if approved by the leagues board – but the one thing that should never be allowed any compromise on is clubs % of income spent on wages

 

It is the same with clubs that don’t need ground improvements – some are lucky to rent top class grounds, others aren’t so lucky and own and have to pay for their own ground improvements-  for those that don’t need ground improvements straight away,  at least they’ll have built up a fund to do ground improvements when needed down the line (which they will need eventually) or maybe even to contribute to build their own stadium. Clubs been proactive rather than reactive, mad idea ain’t it!

 

That will drive on the field standards back 50 years

 

Increase in on the field standards definitely does not mean an increase in league attendances. This has been proved over the years. The standard on the pitch is the worst it has been since 2008 – and is currently only getting worse. The league would only lose a handful of players by having this strict wage constraints (as majority wouldn’t be good enough for lower leagues in England – or would even want to go to non league in England).

 

Maybe then with the increase in funding towards clubs youth set ups, we would finally see some improvement n the pitch a few years down the line – that would be the idea.

 

Until clubs, wake up and do something drastic like this – the league will never have a chance of progressing and the same problems are going to keep coming up, but in different decades

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roverstillidie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 10:52am
Originally posted by deiseblue deiseblue wrote:

It should be pointed out that the Blues never threatened to leave the League - the board simply pointed out that it may prove financially impossible to sustain the club in the first division given next season's likely line up.
 
And some other clubs equally as validly can point out that losing games against Rovers, Pats and Cork and replacing them with Mervue, Salthill and Wexford will have massive financial impact on them.

Originally posted by deiseblue deiseblue wrote:

Let's not kid ourselves regarding the forebearance shown to Rovers - they knowingly & fraudulently lodged the wrong accounts in order to gain the appropriate license - for which they could have been ejected from the Leaue.
 
There were no prescribed punishment. They could have been expelled from the league. So could Derry, Cork and Shels. The FAI don't expell clubs. We didn't get a favour - we got a fair punishment in line with precendent.
 
Originally posted by deiseblue deiseblue wrote:



I happen to think that the FAI took the right course of action in showing clemency as nobody wanted to see a club with Rovers long tradition cast into oblivion.
 
That was never on the table.

Originally posted by deiseblue deiseblue wrote:

Equally I think Waterford's proposal that a 1 tier league may be the way forward deserves every consideration & I am heartened to see that most contributors to this thread seem to think that this proposal has merit.


And the counter that its a bad proposal has merit. But you are personalising this as big bad Rovers deliberatley bankrupting you for evil reasons. If you don't think you can survive next season of course everyone will try and come to a solution. But if it isn't the one you want, spare us the conspiracy theory.
 
Have you any justification for your plan beyond 'we are fecked, we want PD gates, tv money and prizemoney and we want it without getting promoted'?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deiseblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 10:20am
It should be pointed out that the Blues never threatened to leave the League - the board simply pointed out that it may prove financially impossible to sustain the club in the first division given next season's likely line up.

Let's not kid ourselves regarding the forebearance shown to Rovers - they knowingly & fraudulently lodged the wrong accounts in order to gain the appropriate license - for which they could have been ejected from the Leaue.

I happen to think that the FAI took the right course of action in showing clemency as nobody wanted to see a club with Rovers long tradition cast into oblivion.

Equally I think Waterford's proposal that a 1 tier league may be the way forward deserves every consideration & I am heartened to see that most contributors to this thread seem to think that this proposal has merit.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roverstillidie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 9:58am
Why should a club like Rovers who spend the budgets of most 1st Division clubs on community football already be limited to 10% of turnover on wages?
 
If Waterford can't compete on 65% of wages in a municipal stadium, they won't be able to on 10%.
 
That will drive on the field standards back 50 years. But kudos for thinking outside the box. You are right that clubs should spend more on stadia, but you can't make them either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wheelo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 9:36am
Originally posted by roverstillidie roverstillidie wrote:

Wheelo, has this not all been done?
 

You talking about the aul uefa licensing? It’s not the same as to what I’m proposing. And uefa licensing isn’t properly enforced

 

I don’t care if its ucd turning over 50k a year or rovers turning over 2 million a year – every club should only be allowed spend a very small percentage of their income on wages say.

 

Even clubs that have a good stadium, or who don’t have any stadium of their own but rent and don’t need any urgent ground improvements – should still have to contribute 30% (or similar) of income into the clubs ‘stadium fund’ which can only be used on ground improvements,etc (or even to help get their own ground) even if none of it is spent til 5 years down the line

 

And a smililar % into a proper youth set up – and % set aside for promoting the club locally, pr inititatives,etc

 

Bascially f*** all allowed be spent on players wages – but off the pitch things for the medium/long term future of clubs!

 

A 1 division league would take the pressure off clubs for a couple of years and to take the above conditions in their stride – then hopefully it will be the new ‘club culture’ and when the league goes back to a 2 division league, clubs will be more stable and used to not been able to spend f*** all of their income on wages to chase the dream! (and hopefully a few more junior clubs like tralee and cobh would be in the league then aswel!)

 

I genuinely think f*** all of clubs incomes should be allowed be spent on players wages!

 

It should also be a max of 10euro entrance fee, with under 12s allowed in for nothing. 15e is too much in these tough financial times for people

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roverstillidie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 9:22am
Wheelo, has this not all been done?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roverstillidie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 9:21am
Originally posted by deiseblue deiseblue wrote:


Waterford are , to my mind , correctly pointing out that a 1 tier League May be the way to go - sure it may be in the Blues best interests to do so but that does not necessarily diminish the argument.

 
They are doing more than pointing out. They have threatened to leave senior football if it doesn't happen.
 
There are merits to the proposal, but massive flaws too. And you are dismissing those who think there are flaws as being self interested, whereas your self interest is grand!?!

Originally posted by deiseblue deiseblue wrote:


The reason that I particularly referenced Rovers was due to your comment that Waterford could ask your " rope " & I got the distinct impression that Waterford may get a more reasonable response from the FAI than from your " rope " - the forbearance that I referred to shown by the FAI towards Rovers was when Rovers fraudulently lodged 2003 accounts for the 2005 season ( I do apologise for seemingly repeating this point ad nauseam )
 
How was an effective relegation and removal of the board 'forebearance'?
 
Originally posted by deiseblue deiseblue wrote:


- but it's an important point & let's hope the FAI & league clubs show the same sense of forbearance & understanding when it comes to discussing the League set up for next season & thereafter.

Lets hope they do what is in the interests of the league and as many clubs as possible, not the vested interests of some smaller clubs who have failed to achieve on the pitch.
Originally posted by deiseblue deiseblue wrote:


I think Waterford have outlined the financial implications for the club vis a vis the putative 1st Division set up next season & as such I think their stance smacks more of realism than blackmail .
 
Tough. You think its all champagne and cigars in the PD? A badly run club is a badly run club.
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