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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 11:20am
Big Rom getting monkey chants from Cagliari fans last night, the fan footage is as blatant as it gets.

The same set of fans which started the farce with Moise Kean last season, getting form for being a set of scumbags
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 11:57am
Originally posted by HuntysCousin HuntysCousin wrote:


I watched Atalanta v Torino this evening, really good game. Been impressed with Torino in the opening couple of games, they should have another good season. The best league in the world is well and truly back Clap

Really?

It might be your favourite, but it's fallen a long way behind La Liga, the EPL and Bundesliga, whether measured by playing standards, competitiveness, financial stability, crowds, stadia and facilities etc. And as a knock-on, the Italian NT is also at a low ebb.

I see little sign of their catching up - if anything they risk falling further behind (imo) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 12:23pm
Mentioning Bundesliga in the same breath as Serie A LOL

How much pot did you have this morning Terri?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

Mentioning Bundesliga in the same breath as Serie A LOL

How much pot did you have this morning Terri?

No, I think it's still fair to bracket them together, for now at least.

Mind you, if Serie A falls any further behind the Bundesliga, it could be stretching things.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HuntysCousin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by HuntysCousin HuntysCousin wrote:


I watched Atalanta v Torino this evening, really good game. Been impressed with Torino in the opening couple of games, they should have another good season. The best league in the world is well and truly back Clap

Really?

It might be your favourite, but it's fallen a long way behind La Liga, the EPL and Bundesliga, whether measured by playing standards, competitiveness, financial stability, crowds, stadia and facilities etc. And as a knock-on, the Italian NT is also at a low ebb.

I see little sign of their catching up - if anything they risk falling further behind (imo) 

The very best.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by HuntysCousin HuntysCousin wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by HuntysCousin HuntysCousin wrote:

 The best league in the world is well and truly back Clap

Really?

It might be your favourite, but it's fallen a long way behind La Liga, the EPL and Bundesliga, whether measured by playing standards, competitiveness, financial stability, crowds, stadia and facilities etc. And as a knock-on, the Italian NT is also at a low ebb.

I see little sign of their catching up - if anything they risk falling further behind (imo) 

The very best.

By what measure? (Genuine question)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HuntysCousin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by HuntysCousin HuntysCousin wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by HuntysCousin HuntysCousin wrote:

 The best league in the world is well and truly back Clap

Really?

It might be your favourite, but it's fallen a long way behind La Liga, the EPL and Bundesliga, whether measured by playing standards, competitiveness, financial stability, crowds, stadia and facilities etc. And as a knock-on, the Italian NT is also at a low ebb.

I see little sign of their catching up - if anything they risk falling further behind (imo) 

The very best.

By what measure? (Genuine question)

Best jerseys. And Ronaldo. And by me saying so. (I think at this point you can tell how little I give a sh*t about taking the actual 'best league in the world' debate seriously)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by HuntysCousin HuntysCousin wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by HuntysCousin HuntysCousin wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by HuntysCousin HuntysCousin wrote:

 The best league in the world is well and truly back Clap

Really?

It might be your favourite, but it's fallen a long way behind La Liga, the EPL and Bundesliga, whether measured by playing standards, competitiveness, financial stability, crowds, stadia and facilities etc. And as a knock-on, the Italian NT is also at a low ebb.

I see little sign of their catching up - if anything they risk falling further behind (imo) 

The very best.

By what measure? (Genuine question)

Best jerseys. And Ronaldo. And by me saying so. (I think at this point you can tell how little I give a sh*t about taking the actual 'best league in the world' debate seriously)

Ah right. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by HuntysCousin HuntysCousin wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by HuntysCousin HuntysCousin wrote:

 The best league in the world is well and truly back Clap

Really?

It might be your favourite, but it's fallen a long way behind La Liga, the EPL and Bundesliga, whether measured by playing standards, competitiveness, financial stability, crowds, stadia and facilities etc. And as a knock-on, the Italian NT is also at a low ebb.

I see little sign of their catching up - if anything they risk falling further behind (imo) 

The very best.

By what measure? (Genuine question)

Same question could be asked to you because the original post reeked of sh*te.

Competitiveness? When the last CL spots went to goal difference between 3 teams it's safe to say it's a competitive league alright. Meanwhile there's 8 teams all capable of earning spots.

Playing standards? Juve although in a tough CL group should be progressing, Napoli should be progressing in 2nd, Atalanta have every chance of progressing 2nd in their CL debut, Inter Milan not so much however.
Lazio and Roma should be progressing in their Europa League groups.

There's alot of delusion about Italian football like when fans hear the name 'Milan' and think they're world beaters they were in the 90's and when Italian football reached it's lowest ebb in the 00's when the money dried up and unfortunately you've fallen right into it.

I'd say Italian football has been healthy for a number of years now and when both Milan clubs stop with the bizarre decisions off-field and botched Managerial appointments and actually start catching up to Juve it'd only make it more interesting. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Moleman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 1:09pm
Italian football is anything but healthy. What an absolutely bizarre thing to say. There are a number of reasons for that and just because the likes of Juve have pushed on hugely in recent years doesn't change that. Google 'problems in Italian football' or 'italian football in decline' and you'll find 100s of articles from the last few years. It's been an ongoing issue for 20 plus years now this decline.

In saying that, I've always loved the league. Ever since first watching Baggio play way way back I fell in love with it. It still has something about it. 
"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:


The very best.

By what measure? (Genuine question)

Same question could be asked to you because the original post reeked of sh*te.

Competitiveness? When the last CL spots went to goal difference between 3 teams it's safe to say it's a competitive league alright. Meanwhile there's 8 teams all capable of earning spots.

Competitive? Er, it may have escaped your notice, but Juve just won the title for the 8th successive time last season, finishing 11 points ahead of 2nd and 21 pts ahead of those 3 teams.

Whereas Bayern were only 2 points ahead of Dortmund, with Leipzig 12 pts behind BM in 3rd.

Meanwhile, the feeder tier in the pyramid, Serie B, is feeble, at least compared with Bundesliga 2:
https://www.soccerstats.com/attendance.asp?league=germany2

Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

Playing standards? Juve although in a tough CL group should be progressing, Napoli should be progressing in 2nd, Atalanta have every chance of progressing 2nd in their CL debut, Inter Milan not so much however.
Lazio and Roma should be progressing in their Europa League groups.

Ah right, playing standards are higher because of what you imagine they'll do in this coming season.

I guess you have to hope so, seeing as actual results have seen the Bundesliga overtake Serie A in the UEFA co-efficient tables:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficient#Men's_Country_coefficient

Facts are, no Italian club has won the CL since 2010 and none the UEFA Cup/EL this century!

Besides which, Serie A only has 4 teams in the CL again this season because UEFA continue to rig the competition in favour of the Big Five leagues.

Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

There's alot of delusion about Italian football like when fans hear the name 'Milan' and think they're world beaters they were in the 90's and when Italian football reached it's lowest ebb in the 00's when the money dried up and unfortunately you've fallen right into it.

I never mentioned "Milan", and I'm surprised you do, since they're reflective of the long, slow decline in Italian football.

But now you mention them, where are the stars at the big Italian clubs these days, to follow the likes of Van Basten, Maradona, Zidane or Zlatan?

There may be a few outliers, but most "big" signings are past their peak, and/or on loans. Even Ronaldo waited until he was into his 30's before signing, as are many of the names being linked this window eg Boateng (30), Rakitic (31), Mkhitaryan (30). Even Chris Bloody Smalling will be 30 in a couple of months and Martial a month later - though they're still 4 years younger than Llorente, signed on a free by Napoli, or Skirtl, who signed for Atalanta from Turkey - no, wait, he's off again!
Meanwhile, there's talk of Ancelotti signing Zlatan for Napoli at the ripe old age of 37! LOL

Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

I'd say Italian football has been healthy for a number of years now and when both Milan clubs stop with the bizarre decisions off-field and botched Managerial appointments and actually start catching up to Juve it'd only make it more interesting. 

As this podcast points out, more than 150 Italian clubs have gone bust since 2002, including three from Serie A - Fiorentina, Napoli and Parma!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w3csz12r
(6 mins in)

And Bundesliga revenue was nearly €4bn, level with La Liga, whereas Serie A was €2.7 bn:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/261218/big-five-european-soccer-leagues-revenue/

German stadia are almost all club-owned and modern, and light years ahead of their Italian equivalents, which are almost all municipally owned, often shared between 2 teams and athletics etc, and frequently falling apart.


Edited by Territorial - 02 Sep 2019 at 2:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shoco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by HuntysCousin HuntysCousin wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by HuntysCousin HuntysCousin wrote:

 The best league in the world is well and truly back Clap

Really?

It might be your favourite, but it's fallen a long way behind La Liga, the EPL and Bundesliga, whether measured by playing standards, competitiveness, financial stability, crowds, stadia and facilities etc. And as a knock-on, the Italian NT is also at a low ebb.

I see little sign of their catching up - if anything they risk falling further behind (imo) 

The very best.

By what measure? (Genuine question)


Excitement.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doherty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 2:18pm
Serie A still has a big attraction and prob always will. Personally id rather play in Serie A  than the Bundesliga. I always found German football boring and robotic. Can never really get into it. Still love italian football though. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 6:52pm
Originally posted by Shoco Shoco wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by HuntysCousin HuntysCousin wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by HuntysCousin HuntysCousin wrote:

 The best league in the world is well and truly back Clap

Really?

It might be your favourite, but it's fallen a long way behind La Liga, the EPL and Bundesliga, whether measured by playing standards, competitiveness, financial stability, crowds, stadia and facilities etc. And as a knock-on, the Italian NT is also at a low ebb.

I see little sign of their catching up - if anything they risk falling further behind (imo) 

The very best.

By what measure? (Genuine question)


Excitement.

+1
Trying to compare German football to Italian football is a bit like trying to compare Ketchup to Mayonnaise, people will prefer 1 or the other.

German football has its niche for its massive local followings, cheap tickets, fan owned clubs, it's all very well and nice to look at it but as far as excitement goes, it's about as exciting as a morgue.

Italian football has its very compact league with Juve well ahead of the pack with 7 other teams trying to play catch up, possibly 8 with Fiorentina having a wealthy investor over the summer following their disaster of a season which nearly got them relegated.

And who can forget the football show on Channel 4 every Sunday afternoon. 1 of the most iconic football shows on British television.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 10:02pm
Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

German football has its niche for its massive local followings, cheap tickets, fan owned clubs, it's all very well and nice to look at it but as far as excitement goes, it's about as exciting as a morgue.
So all those massive crowds go to be, well, bored?



Btw, have you ever been to a Bundesliga game?

Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

Italian football has its very compact league with Juve well ahead of the pack with 7 other teams trying to play catch up, possibly 8 with Fiorentina having a wealthy investor over the summer following their disaster of a season which nearly got them relegated.
Ah right. Very "compact".

Explain this to me then. Why is Andrea Agnelli, as Chairman of Juve and the ECA the most powerful man in Italian football, so determined to push through a massively expanded version of the Champions League, to make it a genuine "league"?

Maybe 18 - 20 teams drawn from all the big Euro leagues, inc. restricted promotion and relegation and the games to be played at w/e's etc.

Which would have the effect of reducing the domestic leagues, inc. Serie A, to a mere sideshow. Though the 15 or 16 excluded Serie A teams would be even more, er, compact, I'll give you that! LOL

Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

And who can forget the football show on Channel 4 every Sunday afternoon. 1 of the most iconic football shows on British television.
Channel 4 forgot about it, 17 years ago, that's who! LOL

Basically for football trendies who were too "cool" for English football, half of whom couldn't have told catenaccio from carbonara until Richardson explained it to them, or who couldn't/wouldn't pay to subscribe to SKY.

And even then, had Gazza not been playing out there, it would have struggled to get off the ground.

Listen, I've nothing against Serie A, or those who follow it.

But by almost every measure, it has now been relegated to fourth place in the Big Four European leagues, is getting further behind by the season, and shows no signs of knowing how to stop the rot.

And if you want to know just how bad it's got, just compare eg Juve's new (40k) stadium with that of Spurs (60k). Considering Juve are Serie A's top club by a street, whereas Spurs are still struggling to catch the top 2 or 3 clubs in England, the gulf is stark, not least in terms of ambition.






Edited by Territorial - 02 Sep 2019 at 10:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shoco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 10:17pm
it’s still the most entertaining league IMO

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 10:45pm
Originally posted by Shoco Shoco wrote:

it’s still the most entertaining league IMO

This. 
Throw out as much financial clobber as you want but there's some things money can't buy, a girlfriend is one of them, an entertaining football league is another.

Regarding co-efficients, must have a short memory as it was only a few year ago when the British media were sh*tting their jocks about Serie A catching up to them and the EPL getting demoted to only 3 CL spots, this is how it looked like at the end of 2016/17 season


Obviously things have changed due to English clubs' success the past few years but there's a clear delusion on your part of Italian football.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 12:17am
Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

Throw out as much financial clobber as you want but there's some things money can't buy, a girlfriend is one of them, an entertaining football league is another.

Obviously entertainment value is subjective.

That said, how do you explain the low attendances in Italy and the high attendances in Germany if the former is so entertaining and the latter so dull?

Last season, for instance, Serie A crowds averaged 25.2k, which is barely 60% of stadium capacity:
https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/ita-serie-a-2018-2019/1/
Whereas with the Bundesliga, the average was 42.5k i.e. 90% capacity:
https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/bundesliga-2009-2010/1/
Neither pattern has changed over the last decade.

Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

Regarding co-efficients, must have a short memory as it was only a few year ago when the British media were sh*tting their jocks about Serie A catching up to them and the EPL getting demoted to only 3 CL spots, this is how it looked like at the end of 2016/17 season


Obviously things have changed due to English clubs' success the past few years but there's a clear delusion on your part of Italian football.

Take a closer look at your link.

There is no doubt that a decade or more ago, Italian clubs consistently outperformed English ones in Europe. But the co-efficient is worked out over a 5 year moving average, meaning even when the relative performances flip, there will still be a lag before that is reflected in the scores.

Therefore in the five years you quote, England outperformed Italy in four years, plus the two years since.

And the one year of seven when Italy ourperformed England (14/15) was a clear outlier. That is, Liverpool failed to get out of their Group and in the last 16, Arsenal went out on away goals, Chelsea on penalties and Man.City to the eventual winners, Barca.

Whereas Juve went all the way to the Final, having just got out of their Group by a point, ahead of Olympiakos. Meanwhile, the only other Italian team to reach the Group stage, Roma, finished 3rd with 5 points and a GD of -6, behind M.City on 8 pts and Bayern on 15:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E2%80%9315_UEFA_Champions_League

And there's the rub.

With Serie A's clear underperformance financially vis-a-vis the Bundesliga's, they cannot compete for the top players, which means that crowds are unlikely to increase much, nor performances in Europe, meaning a further financial hit from lack of prize money.

Which is why, for instance, the big Italian clubs haven't signed much of note this window (barring de Ligt, maybe Lukaku?), instead buying players who are mostly 30+, and/or on loan or a free, and/or Man Utd's cast-offs! LOL
https://www.betinf.com/italy_transfer.htm

All of which explains why a handful of big Italian clubs are the most enthusiastic in the ECA for a European Superleague, even if it destroys their domestic league, because they feel the rest of Serie A are dragging them back like an anvil tied to their foot.


Edited by Territorial - 03 Sep 2019 at 12:19am
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