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The Man City Thread******* |
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Devrozex 
Jack Charlton 
Joined: 23 Oct 2010 Location: Dublin Status: Offline Points: 7675 |
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 Posted: 22 May 2019 at 4:08pm |
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Just to clear the above up - you're referring to the 2009 tie which Barca won and MC is talking about the 2012 aberration in which Barca lost.
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Roberto Baggio
Robbie Keane
UNBELIEVABLE JEFF Joined: 28 Jan 2010 Status: Offline Points: 37316 |
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Posted: 22 May 2019 at 4:09pm |
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Its clear from reading this thread that there's a lot of luck involved in knockout cup football at the highest level, whether its bad luck when you get knocked out or good luck when you win. |
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Territorial
Jack Charlton
Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
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Posted: 22 May 2019 at 6:49pm |
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PG's job is to build the best team he can. This takes time, but he has already built the best team England has seen in a long time, likely with more to come. Consequently, it is misleading (imo) to focus on the CL, almost as though it is the sole test of the job he's doing. ("Sole test" is not the same thing as "main priority", btw). For if eg Spurs should win the CL, would that make them a "better" team than City, and by extension Poch the "better" manager? No, it would merely mean that Spurs got the breaks (inc in their two ties) in a single knockout competition, where the random nature of football is emphasised. Besides, you can't really judge anyone on so short a period as three seasons in a competition like the CL. For that to be relevant, you need look no further than eg Arsene Wenger, who qualified for Europe every season for 20-odd years, and never won a single trophy. It is my prediction that assuming he stays at the Etihad, PG will figure out a way to conquer Europe, just as eg Ferguson did at MU, only (much?) quicker.
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Hans Moleman
Roy Keane
Muff: That is a lie and you are a liar Joined: 09 Aug 2012 Status: Offline Points: 10199 |
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Posted: 22 May 2019 at 7:22pm |
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I love how the CL is knocked down to a tournament of knock out football luck when it suits the narrative. Guardiola is a sensational manager, but there's no doubt he has been a massive failure at City and Bayern when judged against the highest barometer of CL success alone. That failure isn't anything at all to do with luck, it's to do with flaws in both Guardiolas systems, selections and also Guardiolas players themselves.
His domestic success at Bayern and City is phenomenal though. I've no doubt if he walked away from City today many would question his reign at both clubs. I think due to the CL performances, above par in both 3 year performances would be the his mark, but nothing incredible as many are making out. Terri calling City the greatest team in 20 years in English football is comical. Many others are doing this also. A team that has won the domestic treble (a great achievement tbf) but hasn't got past the CL QF in 3 years under Guardiola. It is absolute nonsense to put City's achievements this season up there with the likes of United in '08 winning a CL and PL double, United '99 treble. Btw, the 100 points thing, that is one for another long long discussion. This whole thing of tying 100 and 98 points to City then being potentially the best league side of all time is insane. On that basis I'm pretty sure PSG last season racked up huge points, are that 2017/18 side one of the greatest French league sides of all time? It's a mental conclusion to draw from the domestic points tallies of sides. There are a huge amount of other factors to speak of when talking about such huge points tallies being racked up nowadays in domestic leagues in Europe. |
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"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Trap junior
Robbie Keane
YBIG Minister of Doom & Gloom Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Location: Irish Riviera Status: Offline Points: 39823 |
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Posted: 22 May 2019 at 7:32pm |
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Everyone knows Pep is journeyman coach and that even MON could win the Champions League with that group of players.
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Pied Piper to: Baldrick, Brendan 88, 9Fingers, Borussia and more...
97.6% chance this post will be replied to by Baldrick (source: PWC) |
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Roberto Baggio
Robbie Keane
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Posted: 22 May 2019 at 8:06pm |
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Some good points Just a note, I’ve always said (I.e not just in the last couple of years since City started getting knocked out before the semi final stages) that the CL requires a lot of luck and a lot of the time the best team in Europe doesn’t win it. Looking at the examples today of that great Barca teams wins under Pep would show this. Also, I’ve never said this City team are better than this or that great team from English football history. It’s hard and quite pointless in comparing teams, or players for that matter from different eras, I’ve always thought. Any more on the Juventus rumours from this morning? Seem to have calmed down a bit.
Edited by Roberto Baggio - 22 May 2019 at 8:07pm |
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Hans Moleman
Roy Keane
Muff: That is a lie and you are a liar Joined: 09 Aug 2012 Status: Offline Points: 10199 |
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Posted: 22 May 2019 at 10:49pm |
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In terms of Guardiola going, I always thought he'd give it 5 or 6 years at City, which would be his longest stint at a club. I think after the past couple of weeks though, I'll be surprised if he is City by the start of the 20/21 season. 12 more months would be my bet.
The Juve thing doesn't add for me right now. Unless Guardiola was just mad to get out of City. That squad at Juve is not tailored at all to the way Guardiola wants to play. Would take a huge amount of ins and outs to balance it. I'm betting 1 more season City. Break of a year. Back to Barca under new president in a couple of years time.
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"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Territorial
Jack Charlton
Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
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Posted: 22 May 2019 at 11:23pm |
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One of the cleverest, most qualified judges of these things is Matthew Benham, owner of Brentford FC and FC Midtjylland. He's an Oxford maths graduate, a professional gambler, he built a very successful online sports betting operation, plus another which supplies sports stats to other users. It's not known how much he's worth, but it must be well into 9 figures, all self-made. He constantly refers to the random nature of football, which makes it different from virtually all other mainstream team sports. One consequence is that he considers it bollox that "the table never lies". Which may seem to be contradicting my pointing to PG's league record/two titles, but bear with me. For Benham reckons that 38 games is not enough to iron out statistical anomalies in a team's record - unusually bad/good, but temporary runs etc. Iirc, he assess teams over up to 100 games before deciding how truly good or bad they are. And in that sense, PG has now been in charge of MC for 114 games, during which time he has accumulated 276 points. So even allowing for a settling-in first season, that averages out at 92 points per season, or 2.42 points per game. They scored 281 goals (= 94 per season, 2.5 per game) and had a net goal difference of +211 (= 70 per season). That is unprecedented in PL (even 1st Division?) history. The point being that if you can't truly assess a team even over 38 games, then it is seriously wide of the mark to judge a team solely on a 13 game CL run, esp if that team is also competing simultaneously in (arguably) the toughest domestic league. Anyhow, I can't find the exact article I read, but this interview with Benham's right hand man covers it:
"Comical"? "Absolute nonsense"? Spare us the hyperbole, it doesn't reinforce your argument, it just make you sound like the silliest and most over-excited commentator in the entire history of the internet ever... For one thing, that MU team of 2007-08 won the title with 87 points, 2 ahead of Chelsea and 4 ahead of Arsenal. They scored 80 goals, with a GD of +58. And yes, of course, the CL was a triumph, but they topped a pretty average group, and in the knockout stages ground out the following results: 1-1 & 1-0 v Lyon; 2-0 & 1-0 v Roma, 0-0 & 1-0 v Barca and 1-1 in the Final v Chelsea, winning on penalties. That in a team which included the attacking talents of Ronaldo, Giggs, Tevez, Scholes and Rooney Meanwhile, they lost first time out in the League Cup (2-0 away to Coventry!) and went out of the FA Cup in the Quarters (1-0 at home to Pompey!). And for another thing, I deliberately said "the best in 20 years (or more?)" in a direct tip of the hat to the MU team of 1998/99 i.e. 20 years ago, since I wouldn't argue against the proposition that that team was the equal, or even superior, to the present City team (even if I'm not sure either way).
Which is probably why you're the only one doing it.
 Edited by Territorial - 22 May 2019 at 11:29pm |
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Hans Moleman
Roy Keane
Muff: That is a lie and you are a liar Joined: 09 Aug 2012 Status: Offline Points: 10199 |
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Posted: 22 May 2019 at 11:33pm |
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I won't lie. I stopped after a few lines. I know exactly what you have said. There are plenty out there who believe a 38/42 game league season doesn't necessarily prove who the best side is either. Plenty believe that in a 20 team league like the PL, you may need to play each other 50 or 100 times to truly determine who the best side is. That knocks out any anomalies as best as possible.
There's huge truth in that. Simply though, such a thing is never ever feasible. So you have 38 game season for teams in the PL. Funnily though, very few people say that at the end of a 38 game season that such and such a side has won a title on luck. So why does 2 legged knockout football come down to just luck as a general narrative? It's nonsense tbh. People say such things to suit themselves. If City won the quadruple this season, you'd be be bleating that they are the greatest club side of all time. Would you allow me to say that actually there were huge elements of luck in their hypothetical CL win? I know for certain you wouldn't, as it wouldn't suit your narrative. League foootball, cup football, 2 legged and 1 legged are all different beasts. To be the very best you have to be able to master them all. City under Guardiola are miles off mastering the CL setup. Could it be that they simply haven't been good enough in that competition so far?
Edited by Hans Moleman - 22 May 2019 at 11:35pm |
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"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Hans Moleman
Roy Keane
Muff: That is a lie and you are a liar Joined: 09 Aug 2012 Status: Offline Points: 10199 |
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Posted: 22 May 2019 at 11:38pm |
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I decided to go back and read it. Yep, just the same old guff. I actually knew word for word what you'd say before even reading it Terri.
One simple question Terri. Are Man City of 2018/19 a better side, equal to , or a worse side than the Man United treble winning side of 98/99? Simple question.
Edited by Hans Moleman - 22 May 2019 at 11:38pm |
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"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Territorial
Jack Charlton
Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 12:27am |
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Which is why I based my argument on three seasons i.e. 114 games. Christ, it's not hard, is it?
Think of it this way. For the first half of Wenger's time at Arsenal, they consistently challenged for League titles. But as they declined in the second half, they became a "Cup team". How so? Because winning a cup over 8 or 10 games is easier for an average side than winning a league over 38, not least because random chance comes into it. And while the average quality of CL teams is obviously higher than with the FAC or LC, there is still a random element which can make or break a run (see Spurs this season, for instance). Oh and I never said it was down to "just luck" - that is your invention. Rather what I'm saying is that random chance is a factor in any match, so that the fewer the matches under assessment, the more chance can skew the analysis. Then throw in the "luck of the draw", the home/away advantage and the knockout nature of cup competition, and the influence of chance can become more of a factor. (Btw, when you assert that people say "such things to suit themselves", you actually mean to suit their argument. Obviously. Or maybe you say things to contradict yourself? )
But what I will say is this. Had City completed the quadruple this season, it would in my opinion have made them the finest English club side ever, for coming on the back of the previous two seasons, I can think of no other achievement to match it. As it is, both the fact of this season's Treble, plus the nature of it, make them the finest English club side of the last 20 years (imo). And if they go on to repeat their present level of excellence for another season or two, I think we would be looking beyond the MU team of 98/99. In that context, whether they actually succeeded in winning the CL after 13 games, rather than going out after 10 etc, need not make a critical difference. (It's that little matter of chance again).
Well you're wrong about that, too. For of course there are elements of luck involved, in cup competition especially. That is the precise point I've been making! But just because City didn't win the CL doesn't detract from the sustained excellence of their other 150+ games under PG, where the influence of chance becomes greatly reduced.
Sir Alex Ferguson joined MU in 1986, and it was six, nearly seven years before he won the League, with another six before he won the CL. Meaning it takes time to build a club, never mind a team. Meanwhile, PG has been a mere 3 seasons at City, and already he came within away goals of getting to the semi-finals. And as we saw in the Spurs/Ajax tie, just about anything could have happened thereafter. On which point, if Spurs were to win the CL, would that make them the "best" team in Europe? Or if Liverpool were to do so, would that make them "better" than City? Btw, before you make up some more answers for me, my own response would be "no" and "no".
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Territorial
Jack Charlton
Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 12:34am |
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For if you had, you'd have seen that I've already answered it namely: "I wouldn't argue against the proposition that that [MU team of 1998/99] team was the equal, or even superior, to the present City team (even if I'm not sure either way)." Simple answer.
Edited by Territorial - 23 May 2019 at 12:36am |
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Hans Moleman
Roy Keane
Muff: That is a lie and you are a liar Joined: 09 Aug 2012 Status: Offline Points: 10199 |
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 1:34am |
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So what you are saying is this. Man City who finished with 100 points and 98 points in 2 seasons are one of the greatest English sides ever (matrix like calculations about Guardiolas average points per game etc. included in your posts to prove thus). Man United, a team that finished on an appalling, token effort of just 79 points in their treble winning season in 98/99 are equal to or possibly, superior to this City team? I'm sorry that doesn't compute. Can you explain?
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"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Hans Moleman
Roy Keane
Muff: That is a lie and you are a liar Joined: 09 Aug 2012 Status: Offline Points: 10199 |
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 1:40am |
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I just read the long post. Jaysus Christ
talk about tying yourself in knots. |
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"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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The Huntacha
Roy Keane
Joined: 27 Mar 2012 Location: Dubai Status: Offline Points: 12776 |
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 6:41am |
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The unintentional irony of the bit in bold
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Jimmy Bullard - "Favorite band? Elastic."
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Hans Moleman
Roy Keane
Muff: That is a lie and you are a liar Joined: 09 Aug 2012 Status: Offline Points: 10199 |
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 8:58am |
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ah here, there's a long post. Then there's a longggggggg post.
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"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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ChesterCopperpot
Liam Brady
Joined: 28 Feb 2019 Status: Offline Points: 1168 |
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 9:41am |
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Wow, there's more people in this thread than there usually is in the Ethiad these days
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Gary McKay
Roy Keane
Yo Adrian Joined: 21 Jul 2007 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 13816 |
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 10:45am |
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To summarise, are City the best English team of all time or not ?
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"Smalling and Jones.... have the potential to be the PL’s best ever pairing in my opinion." - SlurAlex
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