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Paul McGrath
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lassassinblanc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 9:51am
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Talk this morning that Pep has agreed to take over Juventus.


After seeing who posted this, I was sceptical then I looked it up to see some truth to it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberto Baggio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 9:56am
Guillem Balagur says there's no truth to the stories. So expect to see him holding aloft a Juve scarf by the end of the week.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChesterCopperpot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 10:06am
Don't see it happening, but in the unlikely event it does
Not winning the Champions League at Man City
Pep Guardiola - Success or Failure? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HuntysCousin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 10:25am
Originally posted by ChesterCopperpot ChesterCopperpot wrote:

Don't see it happening, but in the unlikely event it does
Not winning the Champions League at Man City
Pep Guardiola - Success or Failure? 

Success, without a shadow of a doubt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lassassinblanc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 10:37am
Originally posted by HuntysCousin HuntysCousin wrote:

Originally posted by ChesterCopperpot ChesterCopperpot wrote:

Don't see it happening, but in the unlikely event it does
Not winning the Champions League at Man City
Pep Guardiola - Success or Failure? 

Success, without a shadow of a doubt


Of course he'd be deemed a success.

Let me put it this way if Liverpool don't win the CL would you deem Klopp a failure?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Devrozex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 10:43am
Originally posted by ChesterCopperpot ChesterCopperpot wrote:

Don't see it happening, but in the unlikely event it does
Not winning the Champions League at Man City
Pep Guardiola - Success or Failure? 
 
Given they have amassed 198 points over the last two league campaigns he would undoubtedly be considered a success by outsiders.
 
I wonder how the man himself would judge it however. Europe is becoming like an itch he just can't scratch and I can't see him leaving City until he wins the CL with them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 10:45am
Originally posted by lassassinblanc lassassinblanc wrote:

Originally posted by HuntysCousin HuntysCousin wrote:

Originally posted by ChesterCopperpot ChesterCopperpot wrote:

Don't see it happening, but in the unlikely event it does
Not winning the Champions League at Man City
Pep Guardiola - Success or Failure? 

Success, without a shadow of a doubt


Of course he'd be deemed a success.

Let me put it this way if Liverpool don't win the CL would you deem Klopp a failure?
Different parameters. 

Pep has only won the CL when he had a special Barcelona team. I know he put it together and helped make it special, but there are doubts until he wins it again. He won a league he was expected to win. Considering many of the other teams that could win the CL were disorganised, it is opportunity lost. Similar to his time at Bayern.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 12:25pm
Originally posted by lassassinblanc lassassinblanc wrote:

Originally posted by HuntysCousin HuntysCousin wrote:

Originally posted by ChesterCopperpot ChesterCopperpot wrote:

Don't see it happening, but in the unlikely event it does
Not winning the Champions League at Man City
Pep Guardiola - Success or Failure? 

Success, without a shadow of a doubt


Of course he'd be deemed a success.

Let me put it this way if Liverpool don't win the CL would you deem Klopp a failure?
Jurgen Klopp doesn't have the billions of a human rights-abusing petro-state behind him
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Pep has only won the CL when he had a special Barcelona team. I know he put it together and helped make it special, but there are doubts until he wins it again. He won a league he was expected to win. Considering many of the other teams that could win the CL were disorganised, it is opportunity lost. Similar to his time at Bayern.
You overlook how random the CL is, also how competitive the EPL is.

For example, Spurs have lost 4 and drawn 2 of their 12 CL games to date (inc a loss to M.City),  yet another draw in the Final could still see them lift the trophy (AET and pens).

And Liverpool got to the Final last year, where they were unlucky with the Salah/Ramos incident, yet were nowhere near City in the League.

More generally, Ferguson was undoubtedly the best manager in England over nearly two decades, and therefore one of the best in the world, yet his CL record was poor enough. 

Guardiola built one of the greatest teams of all time at Barca; maintained an extremely high standard at Bayern; and is now on his way to building another truly great side at City, all while still only being 48.

Phenomenal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zinedine Kilbane 110 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by lassassinblanc lassassinblanc wrote:

Originally posted by HuntysCousin HuntysCousin wrote:

Originally posted by ChesterCopperpot ChesterCopperpot wrote:

Don't see it happening, but in the unlikely event it does
Not winning the Champions League at Man City
Pep Guardiola - Success or Failure? 

Success, without a shadow of a doubt


Of course he'd be deemed a success.

Let me put it this way if Liverpool don't win the CL would you deem Klopp a failure?

Jose was seen as a massive success in his first 3 years at Chelsea
2 leagues
2 league cups
1 FA cup

Pep has the exact same record but more league points.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by Zinedine Kilbane 110 Zinedine Kilbane 110 wrote:

Originally posted by lassassinblanc lassassinblanc wrote:

Originally posted by HuntysCousin HuntysCousin wrote:

Originally posted by ChesterCopperpot ChesterCopperpot wrote:

Don't see it happening, but in the unlikely event it does
Not winning the Champions League at Man City
Pep Guardiola - Success or Failure? 

Success, without a shadow of a doubt


Of course he'd be deemed a success.

Let me put it this way if Liverpool don't win the CL would you deem Klopp a failure?

Jose was seen as a massive success in his first 3 years at Chelsea
2 leagues
2 league cups
1 FA cup

Pep has the exact same record but more league points.
Very different expectations. Sure, he was given the money, but I don’t remember him being expected to win the league in his first season. Europe was more competitive, as he himself had proved, and the cups still meant something. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Very different expectations. 
Isn't that the whole point about Guardiola?

Any other manager could point to an incredible domestic record like his and be (justifiably) satisfied.

But at City, even if the owners weren't obsessed with winning the CL, you could be damned sure PG would be - he's obsessed about winning every minute of every game in every competition.

Therefore he is the one who is "setting the bar higher" than everyone, so that even if he doesn't break the world record with every jump, it still doesn't mean he's not the best in the business.

And remember, this is Manchester City we're talking about. Shocked

You know, the club about whom old racist superfan Bernard Manning used to say:
"There's three kinds of stock, chicken stock, beef stock and City. They're laughing stock."

And before anyone comes back with the old jibe about City's billions etc, there is a ready-made reply:

PSG Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberto Baggio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 1:39pm
Raheem Sterling:
 
"When I started playing for Liverpool’s first-team I was regarded as the next best thing, always being praised. I had a decision to make personally in regards to what I wanted to achieve in my career...”
Your career is only 10-15 years and I hadn’t won any trophies. I wanted to be lifting trophies, so I made that decision to move to City and the tables turned. All my headlines from that day on were all negative before I even kicked a ball.”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberto Baggio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 1:41pm
If Pep leaves at the end of next season, for talks sake, and only wins the league cup next season, his time at the club will still be seen as a big success IMO. Two premier league titles in 4 years, 100 points, 98 points, and the first domestic treble, improved every player almost and some of the football has been sensational.
 
No doubt that the CL will be seen as a failure though, but it shouldn't tarnish his legacy at the club.


Edited by Roberto Baggio - 22 May 2019 at 1:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 1:42pm
Pep has won two Champions Leagues in ten seasons, managing the best clubs in Europe.

At Barca, not only did he have the best player ever in Messi, he also had peak Xavi and Iniesta, and a team built around a once-in-a-lifetime generation of players, who also won a World Cup. He had four full seasons there and won twice (including the robbery of the 2009 semi final against Chelsea, and the injustice in 2011 of van Persie getting sent off and Lord Bendtner missing a glorious chance in the 93rd minute that was identical to the one van Persie scored in getting sent off). So, two lucky wins in four seasons with arguably the best club side ever assembled, certainly featuring the best player ever, and built around a squad that won three international tournaments in a row at the same time. Fine.

At Bayern, he took over the side who had just won the Champions League and had absolutely blown away Barcelona in the semi finals. First semi final: hammered by Real Madrid 4-0 in the first leg, tie over. Second semi final: it might have finished 5-3 on aggregate against Barcelona but they were 5-1 down on aggregate with little over half an hour to play. Again, hammered. The third year, granted, they came close against Atletico. However, again, he had an all-conquering team. He had a goalkeeper who was, at the time, lauded as the best in the world. He had a pair of wingers who pulled off a fearsome double act. He had the best no. 9 in the world in Robert Lewandowski. He had virtually no domestic competition in his three seasons there, because they kept buying Dortmund's best players (Gotze and Lewandowski in particular). Again, he had a squad built around World Cup winners, who were there when he arrived (even if they didn't actually win the World Cup til 2014, they had that quality), all across the field. So, three semi final appearances in three seasons, where he was well beaten twice. Again, it's no more than an expected level of performance for the squad that he had.

At Man City, he came to a club that had already outspent all their rivals over a number of years but nonetheless had an experienced core of quality players. No doubt he supplemented it with a number of good signings but again look at his Champions League record. The first season was an abject failure: drawing twice with Celtic in the group stages and getting knocked out in the last sixteen is not the hallmark of a serial winner. While that Monaco side had their qualities, they were far from the calibre of side that a true contender should lose to. The second season, having spent about €250m net by the time of the last sixteen, including signing two players from the side that knocked them out of the Champions League the year previous, they made it but one round further where they were comprehensively beaten by a side who have finished below them in the league for each of the last ten seasons (even if it was only eight at the time). For the money spent, and the starting position, that was an abject failure. The third season, much like the third season at Bayern, was the only one where you can make an argument that he came close. So, a net spend of hundreds of millions above his direct rivals and what does he have to show for it? Two absolute failures and one close call.

I'm saying it: Pep has been a failure in the Champions League his entire career and the two times he won it was because of a combination of inheriting a team head and shoulders above the opposition, bald luck and searing injustice.


Note: I'm not sure I believe all this and I could probably make an argument on the exact opposite grounds, that he has deserved to win the last ten in a row but for outrageous happenstance, but my opinion is definitely closer to the former than the latter.


Edited by SuperDave84 - 22 May 2019 at 1:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberto Baggio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

I'm saying it: Pep has been a failure in the Champions League his entire career and the two times he won it was because of a combination of inheriting a team head and shoulders above the opposition, bald luck and searing injustice.
Who hadn't won a trophy in the two previous seasons prior to him taking over
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 1:47pm
I would agree with that, although I think he deserves more credit for how he turned around the mess Rijkaard left.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 1:49pm
The same Barcelona side (give or take) won the Champions League in 2006 under Frank Rijkaard, even if they didn't win anything in 07 or 08. And Pep had Messi, Iniesta and Xavi when he took over, not to mention Pique, Yaya Toure, Eto'o and Thierry Henry.


Edited by SuperDave84 - 22 May 2019 at 1:50pm
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