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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 2:04pm
Maybe if people didnt sneer at achievement, Ireland might actually realise its full potential.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cabra Hoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Maybe if people didnt sneer at achievement, Ireland might actually realise its full potential.
I hope you have realised by now that there is a cohort of people who want the rugby team to fail and not for sporting reasons. Whatever people think of the game itself is irrelevant, it's the perception of bought privilege connected to rugby which wrangles with people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 2:33pm
Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

I hope you have realised by now that there is a cohort of people who want the rugby team to fail and not for sporting reasons. Whatever people think of the game itself is irrelevant, it's the perception of bought privilege connected to rugby which wrangles with people.

While its part of it, I think there is undoubted jealously about the relative sporting success of the rugby team, and in particular its a cohort of football fans that have the biggest bee in their bonnet about it. The reason it is becoming more and more pronounced is down to the gradual decline in the fortunes of the Senior Men's Team. Ditto the fact that Irish provinces have been quite successful on the European stage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bo Jackson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

I hope you have realised by now that there is a cohort of people who want the rugby team to fail and not for sporting reasons. Whatever people think of the game itself is irrelevant, it's the perception of bought privilege connected to rugby which wrangles with people.

While its part of it, I think there is undoubted jealously about the relative sporting success of the rugby team, and in particular its a cohort of football fans that have the biggest bee in their bonnet about it. The reason it is becoming more and more pronounced is down to the gradual decline in the fortunes of the Senior Men's Team. Ditto the fact that Irish provinces have been quite successful on the European stage.


Or maybe the absolute incessant coverage of these achievements is beyond nauseating when compared with the failures of the same team in the same sport across the last 20 years.

Rugby gets 7/8 pages in sports supplements, wall to wall coverage on radio/TV, for a sport that isn't anywhere on the same scale in stature or competition to football yet it is our National team that gets lambasted and looked down upon.

I guarantee you, if Ireland fail to progress past the last 8 of the RWC, it will not be treated as a catastrophic failure in the column inches or airwaves. Nor will there be hard questions asked of the mgmt. or players on a level seen when Ireland got knocked out of Euro 2012.

It would never happen but put all the best football teams/players/facilities in Leinster under the same "club" and they would generate better results in Europe. It might take a while but the Leinster Rugby team took their time before becoming a dominant force in Club Rugby.

You can't compare like for like. Football is a global game and we can be rightfully proud of our achievements in the past and ambitions for the future. Nothing the Rugby team does has any impact on that for me.

Rugby has done brilliant to capture the imagination of the public since the turn of the millenium. I followed the Irish teams exploits regularly myself up until 10 years ago. But let's not get carried away in these achievements. There is nothing the Irish Rugby team can do this September that will result in the same scenes post Italia 90. And it goes a lot deeper than the perceived bee in their bonnet you think this dislike comes down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shedite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 3:15pm
I really don't know why people can't support both, or just ignore the one they don't want to support.

Always seems to have to be an either/or.

Same with GAA.

There's plenty of room for all sort of sports in peoples lives
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 3:28pm
Originally posted by Bo Jackson Bo Jackson wrote:



Or maybe the absolute incessant coverage of these achievements is beyond nauseating when compared with the failures of the same team in the same sport across the last 20 years.

There is always the post mortem after each WC defeat. But Ireland seem quick to get back up on the horse after that, and to renew expectation. Whether that is justified or not is to be debated. And there may well be some delusion amongst supporters ranks. But thanks to three Grand Slam in just over a decade, and 5 championships, it has undoubted increased expectation and coverage. Then there are some of the 'soft' achievements, such as becoming only the fifth side ever to beat NZ over a single touring series on NZ soil. And that ignores the European Cup wins by Munster, Leinster and Ulster since 1999

Originally posted by Bo Jackson Bo Jackson wrote:

Rugby gets 7/8 pages in sports supplements, wall to wall coverage on radio/TV, for a sport that isn't anywhere on the same scale in stature or competition to football yet it is our National team that gets lambasted and looked down upon.

Sadly the last five years has been anything but inspiring for the Men's Senior team. Since the defeat to Denmark in 2017 the decline has been noticeable. The quality of football has been very poor, and the rustles have gotten worse and worse. Ten years ago there is no way we would have lost to Luxembourg and drawn with Azerbaijan at home. Armenia away, another one for the list. Or in friendly matches against Malta and Lithuania we are looking for late goals and strokes of luck to keep us going. Since November 2019, we have had two or three genuinely good results. 

Originally posted by Bo Jackson Bo Jackson wrote:

I guarantee you, if Ireland fail to progress past the last 8 of the RWC, it will not be treated as a catastrophic failure in the column inches or airwaves. Nor will there be hard questions asked of the mgmt. or players on a level seen when Ireland got knocked out of Euro 2012.

In fact, if you cast you mind back to 1999 when Ireland lost in Lens to Argentina there was a very serious post-mortem on the back of what was an embarrassing exit, after a very poor decade, where expectations around Irish rugby were in the basement. How did Warren Gatland deal with that after the form was carried into the opening game of the 2000 Six Nations, he changed the team's approach, capped five new players, and brought more back into the fold. After that the results changed. That was the springboard that brought confidence to the game.

The reason 2012 was so heavily scrutinised was due to the omission of some good players, in lieu of war horses, and the fact that management doubled down on team selection even when it came unstuck. Rather than pivoting, Trapp made the most basic of changes to the team for the Kazakstan game, and we were fortunate to get away with a win that day. It came to a halt a month late when Germany hit us for six in Dublin.

But, I can also suggest, in the opposite that if a QF exit does happen in France, the same discussion takes place i.e. 'where next', 'why this stage' etc etc.

Originally posted by Bo Jackson Bo Jackson wrote:

It would never happen but put all the best football teams/players/facilities in Leinster under the same "club" and they would generate better results in Europe. It might take a while but the Leinster Rugby team took their time before becoming a dominant force in Club Rugby.

Good corporate governance and forward planning is responsible for how that panned out.

Originally posted by Bo Jackson Bo Jackson wrote:

You can't compare like for like. Football is a global game and we can be rightfully proud of our achievements in the past and ambitions for the future. Nothing the Rugby team does has any impact on that for me.

How many people ever talk down our past achievements in football? Italia 90 will always be seen as the pinnacle. Even USA '94 we rightly celebrated the achievements in that, even if it didnt match 1990. Euro 88 could have been even bigger, we were unlucky. When we won underage tournaments in the 1990s the television cameras were there to witness it, and celebrate it appropriately. Perhaps we could have done even more of the WMT's achievement last year, but that tournament is yet to happen.

Originally posted by Bo Jackson Bo Jackson wrote:

Rugby has done brilliant to capture the imagination of the public since the turn of the millenium. I followed the Irish teams exploits regularly myself up until 10 years ago. But let's not get carried away in these achievements. There is nothing the Irish Rugby team can do this September that will result in the same scenes post Italia 90. And it goes a lot deeper than the perceived bee in their bonnet you think this dislike comes down.

But is there perhaps a small fear that if, and it is a big if, Ireland win in France that it would somehow overtake Italia '90?

 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cabra Hoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Bo Jackson Bo Jackson wrote:



Or maybe the absolute incessant coverage of these achievements is beyond nauseating when compared with the failures of the same team in the same sport across the last 20 years.

There is always the post mortem after each WC defeat. But Ireland seem quick to get back up on the horse after that, and to renew expectation. Whether that is justified or not is to be debated. And there may well be some delusion amongst supporters ranks. But thanks to three Grand Slam in just over a decade, and 5 championships, it has undoubted increased expectation and coverage. Then there are some of the 'soft' achievements, such as becoming only the fifth side ever to beat NZ over a single touring series on NZ soil. And that ignores the European Cup wins by Munster, Leinster and Ulster since 1999

Originally posted by Bo Jackson Bo Jackson wrote:

Rugby gets 7/8 pages in sports supplements, wall to wall coverage on radio/TV, for a sport that isn't anywhere on the same scale in stature or competition to football yet it is our National team that gets lambasted and looked down upon.

Sadly the last five years has been anything but inspiring for the Men's Senior team. Since the defeat to Denmark in 2017 the decline has been noticeable. The quality of football has been very poor, and the rustles have gotten worse and worse. Ten years ago there is no way we would have lost to Luxembourg and drawn with Azerbaijan at home. Armenia away, another one for the list. Or in friendly matches against Malta and Lithuania we are looking for late goals and strokes of luck to keep us going. Since November 2019, we have had two or three genuinely good results. 

Originally posted by Bo Jackson Bo Jackson wrote:

I guarantee you, if Ireland fail to progress past the last 8 of the RWC, it will not be treated as a catastrophic failure in the column inches or airwaves. Nor will there be hard questions asked of the mgmt. or players on a level seen when Ireland got knocked out of Euro 2012.

In fact, if you cast you mind back to 1999 when Ireland lost in Lens to Argentina there was a very serious post-mortem on the back of what was an embarrassing exit, after a very poor decade, where expectations around Irish rugby were in the basement. How did Warren Gatland deal with that after the form was carried into the opening game of the 2000 Six Nations, he changed the team's approach, capped five new players, and brought more back into the fold. After that the results changed. That was the springboard that brought confidence to the game.

The reason 2012 was so heavily scrutinised was due to the omission of some good players, in lieu of war horses, and the fact that management doubled down on team selection even when it came unstuck. Rather than pivoting, Trapp made the most basic of changes to the team for the Kazakstan game, and we were fortunate to get away with a win that day. It came to a halt a month late when Germany hit us for six in Dublin.

But, I can also suggest, in the opposite that if a QF exit does happen in France, the same discussion takes place i.e. 'where next', 'why this stage' etc etc.

Originally posted by Bo Jackson Bo Jackson wrote:

It would never happen but put all the best football teams/players/facilities in Leinster under the same "club" and they would generate better results in Europe. It might take a while but the Leinster Rugby team took their time before becoming a dominant force in Club Rugby.

Good corporate governance and forward planning is responsible for how that panned out.

Originally posted by Bo Jackson Bo Jackson wrote:

You can't compare like for like. Football is a global game and we can be rightfully proud of our achievements in the past and ambitions for the future. Nothing the Rugby team does has any impact on that for me.

How many people ever talk down our past achievements in football? Italia 90 will always be seen as the pinnacle. Even USA '94 we rightly celebrated the achievements in that, even if it didnt match 1990. Euro 88 could have been even bigger, we were unlucky. When we won underage tournaments in the 1990s the television cameras were there to witness it, and celebrate it appropriately. Perhaps we could have done even more of the WMT's achievement last year, but that tournament is yet to happen.

Originally posted by Bo Jackson Bo Jackson wrote:

Rugby has done brilliant to capture the imagination of the public since the turn of the millenium. I followed the Irish teams exploits regularly myself up until 10 years ago. But let's not get carried away in these achievements. There is nothing the Irish Rugby team can do this September that will result in the same scenes post Italia 90. And it goes a lot deeper than the perceived bee in their bonnet you think this dislike comes down.

But is there perhaps a small fear that if, and it is a big if, Ireland win in France that it would somehow overtake Italia '90?

 


I doubt it, I had the same experience as Con Houlihan during Italia 90 in his classic line "I missed Italia 90, I was in Italy" but I do remember it was a spontaneous event which paralysed the country with giddiness for a few weeks and created a feel good factor. No doubt the mixture of good weather and plenty of drink helped.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote t_rAndy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 4:28pm
I would agree that rugby probably does get much a little more media coverage compared to other sports in comparison to maybe where its viewed amongst the general public but obviously there is a reason for it. Sponsors, downloads, viewership etc. would be behind it. 

I think another element is that there are often real stakes involved when it comes to the international rugby team because the games are usually 6 nations where there is a trophy at the end of it for winner, World Cup the same and even the down under series we do play again the outcome of winning a series is it stays on your CV as an achievement. Only really the November games and rugby world cup build up games have a feeling that there not really something at stake.

Football, unfortunately lately we have not been qualifying or going far in qualifying so we have lots of games where it feels nothing is really at stake so doesn't really capture the full imagine of the people and therefore also not the media. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borussia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 7:18pm
Saturdays game was the most watched sporting event in Ireland since 2017. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irelandfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 7:24pm
Originally posted by Borussia Borussia wrote:

Saturdays game was the most watched sporting event in Ireland since 2017. 
For the 14th most played sport in Ireland very Impressive
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote t_rAndy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 8:21pm
Originally posted by Borussia Borussia wrote:

Saturdays game was the most watched sporting event in Ireland since 2017. 

Some viewership alright. For people who knock it as not popular outside of a certain cohort the numbers don't lie. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Artie Ziff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 8:30pm
I would like to add that I watched it on a dodgy box so if Neilsen can update those figure it would be appreciated
It would damage this forums' reputation
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B6 6HE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 10:02pm
Originally posted by Borussia Borussia wrote:

Saturdays game was the most watched sporting event in Ireland since 2017. 

Yet, flipall play it. 
 
Popular spectator sport with patrons who have no idea of the rulles.
Its the genuine lack of passion.

Irish Football team has fans. Rugby team has customers.


I've been to many rugby games, the posh disinterested onlooker offends me more than any foul mouthed football fan ever could.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 10:28pm
Originally posted by B6 6HE B6 6HE wrote:

Originally posted by Borussia Borussia wrote:

Saturdays game was the most watched sporting event in Ireland since 2017. 

Yet, flipall play it. 
 
Popular spectator sport with patrons who have no idea of the rulles.
Its the genuine lack of passion.

Irish Football team has fans. Rugby team has customers.


I've been to many rugby games, the posh disinterested onlooker offends me more than any foul mouthed football fan ever could.

Why should you care how people support the sport of their choice?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamo1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2023 at 8:51am
Originally posted by Borussia Borussia wrote:

Saturdays game was the most watched sporting event in Ireland since 2017. 
Its strange alright the place i work of about 56 people about 4 are into Rugby. Id say its a lot of casual viewers that are clueless but are jumping on the bandwagon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zizu Kilbane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2023 at 9:02am
They're a very impressive team with an equally impressive coaching staff behind them. I like Andy Farrell. He has a bit of that Jack Charlton -Northern English-Doesnt suffer fools likely, quality to him.

If you look at the under 20s, they've done back to back to grandslams now. The conveyor belt of talent is there so we could be the cusp of a period of unprecedented Irish dominance. The Italians are now even overtaking the Scots and Welsh at this level which is gas! Could be us and France for the next while.

As for the hyperbole merchants like Sweeney in the Indo on Saturday, no they are not the greatest irish team ever in any sport. This nonsense actually does a  disservice to what they've just achieved. Maybe if the go and win the WC in the autumn they can be in the conversation. Ultimately rugby is played by approximately 10 competitive nations in the world, and that has to be factored in to any debate on this topic.

For context we were sixth (SIXTH) in the FIFA world rankings under Jack back in the early 90s
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shedite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2023 at 9:04am
Originally posted by jamo1 jamo1 wrote:

Originally posted by Borussia Borussia wrote:

Saturdays game was the most watched sporting event in Ireland since 2017. 
Its strange alright the place i work of about 56 people about 4 are into Rugby. Id say its a lot of casual viewers that are clueless but are jumping on the bandwagon.
Ah shure that's the same with all big events, Cheltenham all last week you'd have 99% of the viewers couldn't name a horse the week previous
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longford claret Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2023 at 9:16am
Ireland  U20s also beat England at the weekend to claim a second successive 6 Nations and Grand Slam. 
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