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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2017 at 6:12pm
Good for you, but those key interventions saw us beat the world champions; get a last-gasp draw against the team ranked fifth in the world; equalise against the same team away; should have led against the third(?) ranked team in the world; and lead against the hosts and finalists of the Euros and one of the best teams in the world.  

That's a serious contribution to Irish football in anyone's book.  I hope we can find someone else who can do that in years to come. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2017 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Good for you, but those key interventions saw us beat the world champions; get a last-gasp draw against the team ranked fifth in the world; equalise against the same team away; should have led against the third(?) ranked team in the world; and lead against the hosts and finalists of the Euros and one of the best teams in the world.  

That's a serious contribution to Irish football in anyone's book.  I hope we can find someone else who can do that in years to come. 
Yeah fair play, but he was very poor against both Belgium and in Poland. He is an occasional big-game player.
I like Long, it is hard not to like any player who overachieves through hard work and a selfless attitude, but let's not turn him into something he is not. He is an occasional big game player.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2017 at 8:12pm
"Overachiever" is one of the last things I'd call Long. In terms of pure physical capabilities, he's arguably the most complete athlete that has ever played football for Ireland. Based on that alone, he's Premier League quality. If Shane was a more consistent goalscorer, he'd be a top-4 striker.
We're decent enough..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zinedine Kilbane 110 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2017 at 8:23pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

"Overachiever" is one of the last things I'd call Long. In terms of pure physical capabilities, he's arguably the most complete athlete that has ever played football for Ireland. Based on that alone, he's Premier League quality. If Shane was a more consistent goalscorer, he'd be a top-4 striker.


He has 41 goals in the last 6 seasons in the premier league.
He would want to double that amount to be top 4 at least.
He is pretty far from top 4 if we are being honest.

Edited by Zinedine Kilbane 110 - 17 Aug 2017 at 8:23pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2017 at 8:37pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

"Overachiever" is one of the last things I'd call Long. In terms of pure physical capabilities, he's arguably the most complete athlete that has ever played football for Ireland. Based on that alone, he's Premier League quality. If Shane was a more consistent goalscorer, he'd be a top-4 striker.
 He is missing a lot of the things needed to play at the highest level and has replaced them with those physical capabilities; stamina, fitness etc.  The reason he is EPL quality is hard work and not ability, hence he has overachieved.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2017 at 8:38pm
As I said, if he was a more consistent goalscorer he'd be top 4 quality. When Shane is in a purple patch a la the last 6 months of 2015/16, he can be a very good goalscorer (13 goals), but when he's in a barren patch like last season he doesn't score very often at all. It's a question of consistency more than anything. In terms of physical attributes, he has absolutely everything you could ever want in a top level striker.
We're decent enough..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2017 at 10:49pm
I think a key thing with Long, like many strikers, is confidence.  If he has the backing of the manager, and knows he'll be picked through thick and thin, he rewards that.  His form tends to go to pot then when he's playing much more itty-bitty roles - like the second half of last season and now unfortunately.  

When he was banging them in for Hull and Southampton, it was because he was playing week-in, week-out.  

Very much a confidence player.  But MON gets these boys going out thinking they're 10 feet tall. 

Put it this way, if any rational objective (non-Irish) observer looked at our squad on paper compared to Serbia, Wales and Austria, they'd have us down to lose matches to them every time.  Each of those teams has far more players playing Champions League, Europa League etc.  

But yet we've matched and sometimes mastered those teams.  That's because MON and RK has them feeling we're as good as anyone and our collective unity will make up for individual deficiencies.

I think they probably do the same for Long.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irishmufc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2017 at 11:01pm
Long simply isn't a natural goalscorer. He'll never score enough goals to be considered one irrespective of confidence. His strength,aerial ability and pace are his strongest attributes but his control and finishing are average to say the least. A well taken goal against Germany shouldn't cloud that. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TonyNotJack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2017 at 2:43am
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

I think a key thing with Long, like many strikers, is confidence.  If he has the backing of the manager, and knows he'll be picked through thick and thin, he rewards that.  His form tends to go to pot then when he's playing much more itty-bitty roles - like the second half of last season and now unfortunately.  

When he was banging them in for Hull and Southampton, it was because he was playing week-in, week-out.  

Very much a confidence player.  But MON gets these boys going out thinking they're 10 feet tall. 

Put it this way, if any rational objective (non-Irish) observer looked at our squad on paper compared to Serbia, Wales and Austria, they'd have us down to lose matches to them every time.  Each of those teams has far more players playing Champions League, Europa League etc.  

But yet we've matched and sometimes mastered those teams.  That's because MON and RK has them feeling we're as good as anyone and our collective unity will make up for individual deficiencies.

I think they probably do the same for Long.  


We really haven't played that well in this qualification group (with the exception of Vienna) We've been lucky in most of the other games more than matching and mastering anyone. There are also no great squads in this group.Take out Wales best three players and their squad is incredibly ordinary and nothing like as strong in depth as ours. Serbia and Austria's squads are not spectacular. 

I agree with PM, Shane has made the absolute most of his ability through hard work and application.Someone like Stokes definitely has more natural ability than him but has wasted most of it.


Edited by TonyNotJack - 18 Aug 2017 at 1:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zinedine Kilbane 110 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2017 at 6:45am
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

I think a key thing with Long, like many strikers, is confidence.  If he has the backing of the manager, and knows he'll be picked through thick and thin, he rewards that.  His form tends to go to pot then when he's playing much more itty-bitty roles - like the second half of last season and now unfortunately.  

When he was banging them in for Hull and Southampton, it was because he was playing week-in, week-out.  

Very much a confidence player.  But MON gets these boys going out thinking they're 10 feet tall. 

Put it this way, if any rational objective (non-Irish) observer looked at our squad on paper compared to Serbia, Wales and Austria, they'd have us down to lose matches to them every time.  Each of those teams has far more players playing Champions League, Europa League etc.  

But yet we've matched and sometimes mastered those teams.  That's because MON and RK has them feeling we're as good as anyone and our collective unity will make up for individual deficiencies.

I think they probably do the same for Long.  


Ah hear, take off the green tinted glasses.

We all like Long and wish he was a natural goal scorer but at 30 he isn't going to suddenly become one.

He had the backing of various Prem managers and just didn't do enough to justify his starting place. 41 goals in 6 EPL seasons with 10 being his max return. (Robbie scored 10+ for 6 consecutive seasons for Spurs shows the different in class).

I wish we mastered Austria and Wales at home but once again we didn't - not even close.

Hopefully long has a good season and gets to score a few goals in Russia when we qualify

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maccatacca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2017 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

I think a key thing with Long, like many strikers, is confidence.  If he has the backing of the manager, and knows he'll be picked through thick and thin, he rewards that.  His form tends to go to pot then when he's playing much more itty-bitty roles - like the second half of last season and now unfortunately.  

When he was banging them in for Hull and Southampton, it was because he was playing week-in, week-out.  

Very much a confidence player.  But MON gets these boys going out thinking they're 10 feet tall. 

Put it this way, if any rational objective (non-Irish) observer looked at our squad on paper compared to Serbia, Wales and Austria, they'd have us down to lose matches to them every time.  Each of those teams has far more players playing Champions League, Europa League etc.  

But yet we've matched and sometimes mastered those teams.  That's because MON and RK has them feeling we're as good as anyone and our collective unity will make up for individual deficiencies.

I think they probably do the same for Long.  

I don't agree with ranking international teams according to the number of Champions League players they have. Johnny Hayes is now a 'Champions League' player, but still won't get near out line-up. Had Dundalk of qualified for the group stages last season, we'd of had 20+ CL players to choose from, they still wouldn't of received call ups to the national team.

Looking at Austria, Kevin Wimmer is technically a Champions League player, but in terms of ability he's closer to being a Championship player!

The Austrians have two players of decent European caliber - Alaba, and Baumgartlinger (who won't be playing in the Champions League this season).

Several other Austrians may feature for weaker teams in the CL due to their players willingness to play across Europe, but in reality most are playing for mid-lower table teams in average leagues.

Everton or West Brom could probably qualify for European football in Germany, suddenly James McClean and James McCarthy could be branded as 'Champions League' players, but it wouldn't improve their actual skill levels.

When you look at Serbia, its a fairly similar picture. They have Matic, and Tadic (who isn't a 'CL player').
Outside of that, they have some talented players plying their trades in some obscure, average leagues such as the Greek, Turkish and their own domestic league. Their key striker Mitrovic is on the way out the door at Newcastle and may not even feature at club level before playing us.

Then Wales... Bale and Ramsey, two elite level European players. Ben Davies is decent, but no better than some of our options, look at how bare their squad is when injuries / suspensions are factored in. Liverpool youth reserves and unknown league one players are called up.

On the other hand we've no individual quality. But, across the board we've very solid, reliable players in almost every position on the pitch.

We played Wales without 5/6 starting players and they couldn't muster a shot on target... If we played Wales without half of their starting eleven, they'd be fielding unproven 18 year old's.

Perhaps a rational, neutral observer might look at the squads and see that strength and depth, and 23 players playing across England's top two divisions is nothing to turn the nose up at.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Citizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2017 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Beggars can't be choosers.  We don't have another finisher like Robbie Keane, and probably never will. Very few small nations have.  

Long's finishing isn't alway outstanding, but he does makes lots of chances for himself and wins penos, his all-round play is very good, and he steps up in the big games.  



I think that is only half-true, aside from his goals against Germany and Poland, what other big games has he stepped up in?
I like Long, he is a decent player who has worked hard to play above his natural level, but there is no point exaggerating claims about him either.
longs record v top two seeds in qualifying campaigns is not much worse than robbies.

Defenders are terrified of longs pace . His presence cancause teams to play 5 -10 yards deeper. The amount of set pieces he wins huge.

Must say I was disappointed by his displays in the euros. Even his general play was not great tbh. A thing that frustrates me with him as well is that he never kicks on after having a good game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2017 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by Citizen Citizen wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Beggars can't be choosers.  We don't have another finisher like Robbie Keane, and probably never will. Very few small nations have.  

Long's finishing isn't alway outstanding, but he does makes lots of chances for himself and wins penos, his all-round play is very good, and he steps up in the big games.  



I think that is only half-true, aside from his goals against Germany and Poland, what other big games has he stepped up in?
I like Long, he is a decent player who has worked hard to play above his natural level, but there is no point exaggerating claims about him either.
longs record v top two seeds in qualifying campaigns is not much worse than robbies.

Defenders are terrified of longs pace . His presence cancause teams to play 5 -10 yards deeper. The amount of set pieces he wins huge.

Must say I was disappointed by his displays in the euros. Even his general play was not great tbh. A thing that frustrates me with him as well is that he never kicks on after having a good game.
Long has scored three goals versus the top two seeds in seventy-one games, Robbie had done that by his nineteenth cap. I don't think it is far on either to make that comparison.

Other than that, I agree. He has good physical attributes, annoys defenders and has the occasional excellent game. He is incredibly inconsistent though. He is a 'streaky' striker, prone to bouts of form and not permanent class. Which is why he never 'kicks-on'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MC Hammered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2017 at 2:01pm

He did very well to win that peno against France. Lovely use of his body
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Citizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2017 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Citizen Citizen wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Beggars can't be choosers.  We don't have another finisher like Robbie Keane, and probably never will. Very few small nations have.  

Long's finishing isn't alway outstanding, but he does makes lots of chances for himself and wins penos, his all-round play is very good, and he steps up in the big games.  



I think that is only half-true, aside from his goals against Germany and Poland, what other big games has he stepped up in?
I like Long, he is a decent player who has worked hard to play above his natural level, but there is no point exaggerating claims about him either.
longs record v top two seeds in qualifying campaigns is not much worse than robbies.

Defenders are terrified of longs pace . His presence cancause teams to play 5 -10 yards deeper. The amount of set pieces he wins huge.

Must say I was disappointed by his displays in the euros. Even his general play was not great tbh. A thing that frustrates me with him as well is that he never kicks on after having a good game.
Long has scored three goals versus the top two seeds in seventy-one games, Robbie had done that by his nineteenth cap. I don't think it is far on either to make that comparison.

Other than that, I agree. He has good physical attributes, annoys defenders and has the occasional excellent game. He is incredibly inconsistent though. He is a 'streaky' striker, prone to bouts of form and not permanent class. Which is why he never 'kicks-on'.

hmm, 

goals from play v top two seeds in group qualifying

Long - germany , poland , russia
Robbie - italy, sweden, holland, Yugoslavia ? am i missing any, i must be surely

also didnt realise, long has 71 caps v top 2 seeds, god must have about 600 caps


Edited by Citizen - 18 Aug 2017 at 2:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2017 at 2:10pm
Originally posted by Citizen Citizen wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Citizen Citizen wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Beggars can't be choosers.  We don't have another finisher like Robbie Keane, and probably never will. Very few small nations have.  

Long's finishing isn't alway outstanding, but he does makes lots of chances for himself and wins penos, his all-round play is very good, and he steps up in the big games.  



I think that is only half-true, aside from his goals against Germany and Poland, what other big games has he stepped up in?
I like Long, he is a decent player who has worked hard to play above his natural level, but there is no point exaggerating claims about him either.
longs record v top two seeds in qualifying campaigns is not much worse than robbies.

Defenders are terrified of longs pace . His presence cancause teams to play 5 -10 yards deeper. The amount of set pieces he wins huge.

Must say I was disappointed by his displays in the euros. Even his general play was not great tbh. A thing that frustrates me with him as well is that he never kicks on after having a good game.
Long has scored three goals versus the top two seeds in seventy-one games, Robbie had done that by his nineteenth cap. I don't think it is far on either to make that comparison.

Other than that, I agree. He has good physical attributes, annoys defenders and has the occasional excellent game. He is incredibly inconsistent though. He is a 'streaky' striker, prone to bouts of form and not permanent class. Which is why he never 'kicks-on'.

hmm, 

goals from play v top two seeds in group qualifying

Long - germany , poland , russia
Robbie - italy, sweden, holland, Yugoslavia ? am i missing any, i must be surely


Turkey, France, Russia(same game as Long). Off the top of my head.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Citizen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2017 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Citizen Citizen wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Citizen Citizen wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Beggars can't be choosers.  We don't have another finisher like Robbie Keane, and probably never will. Very few small nations have.  

Long's finishing isn't alway outstanding, but he does makes lots of chances for himself and wins penos, his all-round play is very good, and he steps up in the big games.  



I think that is only half-true, aside from his goals against Germany and Poland, what other big games has he stepped up in?
I like Long, he is a decent player who has worked hard to play above his natural level, but there is no point exaggerating claims about him either.
longs record v top two seeds in qualifying campaigns is not much worse than robbies.

Defenders are terrified of longs pace . His presence cancause teams to play 5 -10 yards deeper. The amount of set pieces he wins huge.

Must say I was disappointed by his displays in the euros. Even his general play was not great tbh. A thing that frustrates me with him as well is that he never kicks on after having a good game.
Long has scored three goals versus the top two seeds in seventy-one games, Robbie had done that by his nineteenth cap. I don't think it is far on either to make that comparison.

Other than that, I agree. He has good physical attributes, annoys defenders and has the occasional excellent game. He is incredibly inconsistent though. He is a 'streaky' striker, prone to bouts of form and not permanent class. Which is why he never 'kicks-on'.

hmm, 

goals from play v top two seeds in group qualifying

Long - germany , poland , russia
Robbie - italy, sweden, holland, Yugoslavia ? am i missing any, i must be surely


Turkey, France, Russia(same game as Long). Off the top of my head.
sorry im talking about group stages, not play offs, don't think robbie scored from play v russia, did he?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2017 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by Citizen Citizen wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Citizen Citizen wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Beggars can't be choosers.  We don't have another finisher like Robbie Keane, and probably never will. Very few small nations have.  

Long's finishing isn't alway outstanding, but he does makes lots of chances for himself and wins penos, his all-round play is very good, and he steps up in the big games.  



I think that is only half-true, aside from his goals against Germany and Poland, what other big games has he stepped up in?
I like Long, he is a decent player who has worked hard to play above his natural level, but there is no point exaggerating claims about him either.
longs record v top two seeds in qualifying campaigns is not much worse than robbies.

Defenders are terrified of longs pace . His presence cancause teams to play 5 -10 yards deeper. The amount of set pieces he wins huge.

Must say I was disappointed by his displays in the euros. Even his general play was not great tbh. A thing that frustrates me with him as well is that he never kicks on after having a good game.
Long has scored three goals versus the top two seeds in seventy-one games, Robbie had done that by his nineteenth cap. I don't think it is far on either to make that comparison.

Other than that, I agree. He has good physical attributes, annoys defenders and has the occasional excellent game. He is incredibly inconsistent though. He is a 'streaky' striker, prone to bouts of form and not permanent class. Which is why he never 'kicks-on'.

hmm, 

goals from play v top two seeds in group qualifying

Long - germany , poland , russia
Robbie - italy, sweden, holland, Yugoslavia ? am i missing any, i must be surely

also didnt realise, long has 71 caps v top 2 seeds, god must have about 600 caps
I don't think all of 'God's' first 19 caps were against top two seeds either, that was the comparison. I would imagine, given the history of our fixtures, that both would have faced a similar range of opposition in their appearances.
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