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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Hans, as someone who has regularly been a **** on here, I advise to always be self-aware.

Oh I'm very aware when I'm being a ****. I'm also very aware when others are being ****s. That last post is ****ish at best and that is an incredibly kind description.
It certainly doesn’t seem that way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Absolute poison post. Again not your first.


I missed quoting this one too. Yet more arrogant, dismissive invective.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King_Kenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 2:46pm
55 new posts and No whelan retirement ! Back to work!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Moleman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 2:48pm
Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Absolute poison post. Again not your first.


I missed quoting this one too. Yet more arrogant, dismissive invective.

And your thoughts on the number of posts on this thread in recent times saying that anyone questions Whelan's place in the team is a barstooler, has never seen Ireland play live, is listening to Eamonn Dunphy and is just repeating what he says and they essentially know nothing about football. 

My comments were in response to utter tripe. Yes, absolute utter tripe about Dunphyesque barstoolers yada yada yada. The height of dismissiveness. Worse still, it's completely wrong from a football analysis point of view. I didn't see you jump in there though. As for my post that you suggest is dismissive when a poster asks me to outline what I interpret McCarthys instructions to Whelan yo be LOL you're right. I will dismiss that. It's utterly bizarre. Anyone watching Glenn Whelan for 5 minutes knows what he is about. It hasn't changed 100 of games later.

Oh and your post is absolutely poison. It's not your first time at it either. It's clearly personal and you're triggered by my responses. Now, as Dr Phil would say, you own that problem. I'd have a word with yourself if I were you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zinedine Kilbane 110 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 3:02pm
I reckon he has earned around €15M + from his football career.
Not bad for a footballer who was very limited.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trigboy 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 3:13pm
Originally posted by Fozz Fozz wrote:

Agree with this.
Our opinions were mostly formed during the Trap and MoN eras when he had a simple mandate .
This campaign has been excellent for him relatively speaking and I'm delighted he can bow out after this term rather than the last.

Who says he’s going to bow out he’s playing great football and is in great shape and is still 35 he’ll be 36 in January! Lothar Matthaus played in Euro 2000 at 39

Edited by Trigboy 10 - 21 Nov 2019 at 3:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horsebox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by Zinedine Kilbane 110 Zinedine Kilbane 110 wrote:

I reckon he has earned around €15M + from his football career.
Not bad for a footballer who was very limited.




1st choice under every manager he played under.
How many mangers did he play under - must be close to 10



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrendanD88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by Trigboy 10 Trigboy 10 wrote:

Originally posted by Fozz Fozz wrote:

Agree with this.
Our opinions were mostly formed during the Trap and MoN eras when he had a simple mandate .
This campaign has been excellent for him relatively speaking and I'm delighted he can bow out after this term rather than the last.

Who says he’s going to bow out he’s playing great football and is in great shape and is still 35 he’ll be 36 in January! Lothar Matthaus played in Euro 2000 at 39

Now we’re talking! Comparisons to Matheus Clap

More content like this please, oh and if we can get another Dunphy comment in, this thread has serious potential.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fochie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Originally posted by fochie fochie wrote:

Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Originally posted by fochie fochie wrote:

In short, what is his roll in the system we play? I was expecting you to elaborate.

You know his role in the team I presume, so why are you asking me to explain it to you?

I wanted your interpretation of whats expected of him by the manager, not by you.

Beyond bizarre.
Beyond bizarre....a serious question that you cannot answer so you dismiss it as "beyond bizarre".
The Irony.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gufct Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 4:13pm
he has 6 Ferrari’s as grumpy once said while slating him!!!

Edited by gufct - 21 Nov 2019 at 4:13pm
One City,One County,One Club GUFC will be back.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Moleman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by Zinedine Kilbane 110 Zinedine Kilbane 110 wrote:

I reckon he has earned around €15M + from his football career.
Not bad for a footballer who was very limited.



See this is the thing. People are equating myself or others on here saying that we should be using other players besides Whelan, as being the same as  saying he's a fraud and should be playing junior football. 

Whelan is a limited professional footballer , has imo got every ounce out of his ability career wise. I have huge respect for him for that. That doesn't mean that I'm happy seeing him as a mainstay at the heart of the Irish midfield for a decade. He is limited. He isn't quick enough for a high level. Using players like this in midfield dictates how we set up as a midfield and as a team. It effects how we defend, we need players close to him as he's not quick enough and would be exposed. It effects how we attack, we can't overcommit as he'd be exposed on the break. His passing isn't good enough to get us attacking quickly when we do win the ball back. There are lots of strands to how having a player like him in our team has a huge effect on the style of play we have.

The worst thing about it is that every single bit of this has been clear for a decade. There's no surprise in it. When push came to shove under MON in our 2 biggest games in the past 10 years against Italy and France at Euro 2016, Whelan was dropped. We changed the way we played, were more aggressive and pressed far far higher up the pitch. We played a lot better as a result imo and it suited many more of our players than this stand offish attitude we used most of the time.

For all of that, Whelan should of course have been used at times for us in the past decade. He's a limited player, but he's smart. He's a good organiser. When we lead the French in 2016, imo we should have made a couple of subs and changed tactic. Whelan should have been brought on. He had and still has his uses. 
 
He just never be near 100 caps for us, and imo it's an indictment of the horrible conservative non football we are happy to play for so long. Worse than the managers and players accepting it, it's sad to see so many fans happy with us having this rotten attitude towards winning games now. It's embedded in people that this is the standard. This is acceptable. It's genuinely sad for Irish football. 


Edited by Hans Moleman - 21 Nov 2019 at 4:39pm
"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 4:40pm
What has made him so surprisingly, to some at least, successful is the fact he knows his limitations. Every other midfielder we have seems to think they are brilliant, only to disappear when the going gets tough and, as a result of them not being as good as they think, that happens often.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Moleman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

What has made him so surprisingly, to some at least, successful is the fact he knows his limitations. Every other midfielder we have seems to think they are brilliant, only to disappear when the going gets tough and, as a result of them not being as good as they think, that happens often.

I agree and as I said you have to respect the career he's made for himself. I also think that's he's simply smarter than players like Hendrick Arter etc. even if they are different type of midfielders. At the end of the day in midfield, whether you're a defensive anchor, box to box, attacking mid, half and half etc, most of the basics are the same. Whelan knows his limits and does the basics well. 

"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OnTheOneRoad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 5:06pm
Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

What has made him so surprisingly, to some at least, successful is the fact he knows his limitations. Every other midfielder we have seems to think they are brilliant, only to disappear when the going gets tough and, as a result of them not being as good as they think, that happens often.

I agree and as I said you have to respect the career he's made for himself. I also think that's he's simply smarter than players like Hendrick Arter etc. even if they are different type of midfielders. At the end of the day in midfield, whether you're a defensive anchor, box to box, attacking mid, half and half etc, most of the basics are the same. Whelan knows his limits and does the basics well. 


I've given Whelan plenty of stick over the years, and have also praised him when i thought he has done well. I thought he was one of our better performers over this campaign - and one of our worst in the last one. I'm not too sure many of our players have been consistently very good and have few if any bad games. Randolph, Duffy (even he was disappointing in a key moment on monday) are the only two that really come to mind.

When it comes to the debate about Whelan, a lot of people who are not fans of his take umbrage with the mention of Eamon Dunphy. Things like 'its bollox that people accuse you of listening too much to Dunphy if you don't like Glenn Whelan' and so on. 

I honestly believe that if Dunphy hadn't made that famous point about Whelan that he wouldn't be as maligned as he is today. He's been good sometimes, he's been sh*te other times. Look at who else has been around him the past two campaigns. Can anyone make a compelling argument that Hourihane, Hendrick, or Arter to name three have been less worthy of criticism than Glenn in the past 2-3 years? I am no great fan of Whelan's, but i can't make that argument.

Whelan is the only one of our midfielders that is judged on what he can't offer, rather than what he can. And to a degree that is actually fair. I myself have advocated for Cullen to be in the team rather than him despite Whelan doing ok, as I feel Cullen can hold his own defensively and be a playmaker from deep. Whelan can't really offer us that, and he is seen to an extent as our conservative style incarnate on the pitch. But he is performing, and performing rather well. The other two beside him have been doing the square root of f**k all, and are not criticised half as much, because of what they can do when on some mystical level of form that we have never seen, or haven't seen in years. Some were even calling for Brady back in the starting 11! 

I'd rather have Whelan doing what limited amount he can do, rather than another player not doing what supposedly great things they can do. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 5:30pm
Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Whelan is a limited professional footballer, has imo got every ounce out of his ability career wise. I have huge respect for him for that. That doesn't mean that I'm happy seeing him as a mainstay at the heart of the Irish midfield for a decade. He is limited. He isn't quick enough for a high level. Using players like this in midfield dictates how we set up as a midfield and as a team. It effects how we defend, we need players close to him as he's not quick enough and would be exposed. It effects how we attack, we can't overcommit as he'd be exposed on the break. His passing isn't good enough to get us attacking quickly when we do win the ball back. There are lots of strands to how having a player like him in our team has a huge effect on the style of play we have.

The worst thing about it is that every single bit of this has been clear for a decade. There's no surprise in it. When push came to shove under MON in our 2 biggest games in the past 10 years against Italy and France at Euro 2016, Whelan was dropped. We changed the way we played, were more aggressive and pressed far far higher up the pitch. We played a lot better as a result imo and it suited many more of our players than this stand offish attitude we used most of the time.

For all of that, Whelan should of course have been used at times for us in the past decade. He's a limited player, but he's smart. He's a good organiser. When we lead the French in 2016, imo we should have made a couple of subs and changed tactic. Whelan should have been brought on. He had and still has his uses.


I have to say I agree with basically all of this. The only example I'd have against it is how well we played against Switzerland and Denmark at home in this campaign, when Whelan was in central midfield. We also don't know what instructions Whelan was given for the majority of the games under Trap and MO'N when the game seemed to be bypassing him (whatever about his role in shielding the back four). However, what we can say is that in both the Switzerland and Denmark games at home in this campaign, he was a lot more proactive than we've seen in a number of previous games under the previous two managers. His performances for Stoke, Aston Villa and Hearts over the last decade plus have shown that he is capable of being more proactive than he has shown in a lot of Ireland games over that period; arguably, we should be criticising Trap and MO'N more for their tactics (though of course, plenty were and still are doing that).

We are definitely capable of playing a more proactive brand of football even with him on the pitch than we have shown in the past; we've shown that we can be attacking in a number of games where he has played, too. While Whelan didn't play against France or Italy, he did play in our last two big home games, and played quite well (particularly against Denmark), certainly a lot more proactive than he has been in a number of past games for us. A large part of that has to be ascribed to managerial instructions; it seems the most obvious explanation. None of this is to say that Whelan was playing with the handbrake on under MO'N or Trap, or that he was somehow being held back by them; it is just to say that the evidence would tend to show that he was simply doing the job he was sent out to do and one he was mostly capable at. He isn't capable of pressing high up the pitch on the edge of the opposition penalty area; it would be lunacy to expect that level of workrate at 35 years of age, that is without doubt.

In many respects, the biggest criticism I have of him as a central midfielder isn't his passing so much as his lack of movement with the ball and lack of invention as a creative force. It is a good thing that a player with the ball at their feet looks to pass it quickly (as Whelan does often enough) but Whelan has never been able to take two or three touches into space and bring the ball forwards. He is far more likely to spread it wide or backwards than he is to run forward with it himself, or try to thread a ball through midfield. On multiple occasions on Monday, Jeff Hendrick had the ball, took a couple of touches, brought the ball ten or fifteen yards forward, and then passed it or at least tried to, either wide or forwards. Now, of course, sometimes he gave it away, but that has simply never been part of Whelan's game or skillset. The problem is that to have a decent central midfield against reasonable opposition, every central midfielder needs to be able to do that. Whelan has never been a tiki-taka passer of the ball either; instead, very often, it's one touch, a delay, and then a slower pass. He's neither one thing nor the other when we have the ball, not a tiki-taka passer, not a dribbler. Wes Hoolahan used to be excellent at picking up the ball in midfield, moving forwards, and playing the right pass, having generally taken an opposition midfielder out of the game.

At the higher levels of the international game, you need every central midfielder to be able to do that, at least occasionally, and the other central midfielders to cover. Hell, in the Switzerland game, a centra half scored from open play by moving forward and playing the right pass. Unfortunately for us, for most of the past decade, we have generally had one midfielder who can do that (or will try to do that) coupled with one midfielder who is either generally incapable of doing that, or instructed not to do that, in Glenn Whelan. That makes the team predictable and easier to stop. The benefit is that you play what appears to be much safer game, safe in the knowledge that even if one of your midfielders does lose the ball in the middle of the pitch, you'll have the security of a covering midfielder behind. However, it arguably ignores the fact that you could have the same thing, if only you had two midfielders who were equally capable of defensive shielding and a little creativity when required.

However, Glenn Whelan, for everything he does offer, has never been that player. The one other thing I'd say, though, is that it doesn't necessarily follow that he shouldn't have the best part of 100 caps for us. When looking at the alternatives and the teammates he has played with or in place of over the last decade, there are few enough players who you can say should have taken his place. There's no doubt it would be nice if Darron Gibson had lived up to his promise or if James McCarthy hadn't had such horrible injury problems or if Wes Hoolahan hadn't been frozen out by Trap or if David Meyler had been more consistent in the role, and that they might have taken a number of caps from Whelan but I don't think you can criticise Whelan for that. It would have been nice if each of those players had had better international careers and, say, 50 caps each, with better international careers than Glenn Whelan, but Whelan has done a job for us for a long time because he was, generally, among the best available options at any time.

I don't think anyone can deny that Glenn Whelan is relatively limited in what he brings to the team but for the most part he has been the best available option; arguably, that is the most depressing thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King_Kenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by Zinedine Kilbane 110 Zinedine Kilbane 110 wrote:

I reckon he has earned around €15M + from his football career.
Not bad for a footballer who was very limited.


Remember yer man JD and his big salary!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Moleman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2019 at 1:09am
LOL
"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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