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dangere_here 
Kevin Kilbane
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 Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 12:20pm |
 tetsujin1979 wrote:
And a two draws with Switzerland. And a loss to the same team in the previous qualifiers.
And taking off Robbie Keane at home when we needed a goal
And was lucky with a penalty save against Cyprus.And never winning a competitive game against a team in the top 80 in the world
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While I agree with your general point, this one is a bit of a read herring.
Considering our own seeding at the time, the only chance Kerr would have ever had to achieve that would have been:
Russia home 2003 (Russia playing for a point) See comment below
Switzerland away 2003: Swiss playing for a point, we needed to do something we hadn't done on the continent in 50 years, playing with a fairly depleted side as I recall. For Euro 2004, we were struggling generally in that group with losing our opening two matches against our direct rivals, should be written off for Kerr. At the time we were in a serious morale low, late win in Georgia away, drew in Albania, injury time winner at home to Albania. If I remember correctly, we were only in slight contention towards the end because other results went our way. The Basel 03 game had the same vibes off it as Anfield against the Dutch. Going with hopes of a big upset, but everyone knew in their heads that we had no chance of beating the Swiss on the night.
Swiss away 2004 vast improvement over the 2003 match, fair result
France away 2004 very credible point in Paris, O'shea could have made it a famous win for Irish sporting history.
Israel away 2005 sat back and got punished, but that's happened to McCarthy and Charlton as well, Poznan for example cost us Euro 92 qualification
Israel home 2005 freak result, could have won 3 nil on another afternoon
France home 2005 heading for credible nil all when Henry produced a moment of magic with 20 minutes left, on another night 0-0 draws with the French home and away would have highly regarded by the FAI
Switzerland 2005 limp performance alright, but every manager has had them. Charlton had an awful lot of them in 1995, even with some younger lads like Kennedy coming through.
Unlucky or not, Kerr was within a pube hair of getting that 1 nil win in Israel, that would have likely been enough for the FAI to keep him on for Euro 2008. Likewise, if John O'Shea had not missed an open goal in Paris and so on. The point is, Charlton and McCarthy also suffered these sort of results. Likewise Trap, O'Neill, and Kenny. Essentially, Kerr fell on his sword over 180 minutes with Israel and a degree the Swiss home match. I probably didn't mind too much back then if he was staying on or not
I remember after that Swiss matching thinking we were putrid. That said, I was 21 at the time and had no idea what the subsequent 16 years would bring. In hindsight, he certainly would have made a better go at Euro 2008 qualification, nothing spectacular perhaps would I don't think we would have lost 5-2 in Cyprus under Kerr, 1-1 would be a bad night at the office with him.
Edited by dangere_here - 05 Apr 2022 at 12:39pm
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Luis Amor Rodriguez
Liam Brady
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Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 12:22pm |
I've clearly offended some people's sensibilities with my criticism of SK.
The GroupThink runs strong in some.
There's no difference between whether we lost the second last game instead of the last game - obviously. I think we're all allowed make inconsequential errors. The point is Ireland were competitive and right in it up until the final whistle went in the very last game - as we usually are, there or thereabouts. |
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JohnSwift
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Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 1:05pm |
Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:
Great analogy with the house, Baldrick.  Probably puts Kenny's reign in a context which explains a lot of the sympathy he has engendered, despite unprecedently bad results and performances until Portugal away.
Tets - you're nothing if not pedantic. Although I see you have your cheer-leaders rowing in.
OK, we lost to Switzerland under Mick in the second-last game, not the last game. Congratulations for your incisive analysis and correction.
The point still stands - Mick took draws from 3 matches against some of the top teams in the world, and would have qualified automatically but for the bounce of the ball in the last few minutes against Denmark in a game we dominated - probably the last game we played well in until Portugal away nearly 3 years later.
Stan's disastrous 2008 campaign - although the meaning of the word "disastrous" in an Irish football context has had to since be revised after the first two years of SK. I remember the campaign well and we were still in it until we lost in Prague, with 3 games to go. Win that, and we were back in it. Of course, we didn't and other than the Germany game, results did not improve.
And what happened?
Stan was fired.
Which I think is Kerr's point.
I won't get into the minutiae of Kerr's regime - we can agree to disagree.
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The Denmark game under Mick was November 2019. The Portugal away game under Kenny was September 2021. That's a gap of less than two years.
At this stage, the number of factual inaccuracies in your posts and complete lack of nuanced analysis has undermined the points you're trying to make.
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tetsujin1979
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Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 2:00pm |
dangere_here wrote:
tetsujin1979 wrote:
And a two draws with Switzerland. And a loss to the same team in the previous qualifiers.
And taking off Robbie Keane at home when we needed a goal
And was lucky with a penalty save against Cyprus.And never winning a competitive game against a team in the top 80 in the world
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\While I agree with your general point, this one is a bit of a read herring.
Considering our own seeding at the time, the only chance Kerr would have ever had to achieve that would have been:
Russia home 2003 (Russia playing for a point) See comment below
Switzerland away 2003: Swiss playing for a point, we needed to do something we hadn't done on the continent in 50 years, playing with a fairly depleted side as I recall. For Euro 2004, we were struggling generally in that group with losing our opening two matches against our direct rivals, should be written off for Kerr. At the time we were in a serious morale low, late win in Georgia away, drew in Albania, injury time winner at home to Albania. If I remember correctly, we were only in slight contention towards the end because other results went our way. The Basel 03 game had the same vibes off it as Anfield against the Dutch. Going with hopes of a big upset, but everyone knew in their heads that we had no chance of beating the Swiss on the night.
Swiss away 2004 vast improvement over the 2003 match, fair result
France away 2004 very credible point in Paris, O'shea could have made it a famous win for Irish sporting history.
Israel away 2005 sat back and got punished, but that's happened to McCarthy and Charlton as well, Poznan for example cost us Euro 92 qualification
Israel home 2005 freak result, could have won 3 nil on another afternoon
France home 2005 heading for credible nil all when Henry produced a moment of magic with 20 minutes left, on another night 0-0 draws with the French home and away would have highly regarded by the FAI
Switzerland 2005 limp performance alright, but every manager has had them. Charlton had an awful lot of them in 1995, even with some younger lads like Kennedy coming through.
Unlucky or not, Kerr was within a pube hair of getting that 1 nil win in Israel, that would have likely been enough for the FAI to keep him on for Euro 2008. Likewise, if John O'Shea had not missed an open goal in Paris and so on. The point is, Charlton and McCarthy also suffered these sort of results. Likewise Trap, O'Neill, and Kenny. Essentially, Kerr fell on his sword over 180 minutes with Israel and a degree the Swiss home match. I probably didn't mind too much back then if he was staying on or not
I remember after that Swiss matching thinking we were putrid. That said, I was 21 at the time and had no idea what the subsequent 16 years would bring. In hindsight, he certainly would have made a better go at Euro 2008 qualification, nothing spectacular perhaps would I don't think we would have lost 5-2 in Cyprus under Kerr, 1-1 would be a bad night at the office with him.
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Maybe, but every other manager had at least one competitive win against a team in the top 50, apart from Kenny so far Charlton had three(Italy, Northern Ireland, and Portugal), McCarthy had six(Lithuania, Croatia, Yugoslavia, Netherlands, Iran, Saudi Arabia), Staunton beat Slovakia(37), Trapattoni beat Armenia(44), and O'Neill had five(Germany, Bosnia, Italy, Austria, and Wales) Kerr had as many competitive games against teams in the top 80 as Staunton did, eight, and didn't manage to win any of them
Edited by tetsujin1979 - 05 Apr 2022 at 2:06pm
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dangere_here
Kevin Kilbane
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Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 2:43pm |
Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:
Stan's disastrous 2008 campaign - although the meaning of the word "disastrous" in an Irish football context has had to since be revised after the first two years of SK. I remember the campaign well and we were still in it until we lost in Prague, with 3 games to go. Win that, and we were back in it. Of course, we didn't and other than the Germany game, results did not improve.
And what happened?
Stan was fired.
Which I think is Kerr's point.
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The Staunton thing was a totally different situation though. Essentially he was fired because he got booed off the pitch after the Cyprus draw at home. Essentially Delaney booted him to save his own skin in that moment, as the boos were as much for the overall setup than Staunton and Robson. Kenny has not reached the point of being booed after a qualifier.
The away late goal in Bratislava killed Staunton's campaign, 2-1 up with just a few minutes left. If I remember correctly if it stayed 2-1, a point in Prague may well have been enough if we beat Cyprus and Wales (and not lose to Germany  ) though I might be wrong there. Was a very unusual campaign.
Edited by dangere_here - 05 Apr 2022 at 2:45pm
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dangere_here
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Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 3:30pm |
tetsujin1979 wrote:
dangere_here wrote:
tetsujin1979 wrote:
And a two draws with Switzerland. And a loss to the same team in the previous qualifiers.
And taking off Robbie Keane at home when we needed a goal
And was lucky with a penalty save against Cyprus.And never winning a competitive game against a team in the top 80 in the world
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\While I agree with your general point, this one is a bit of a read herring.
Considering our own seeding at the time, the only chance Kerr would have ever had to achieve that would have been:
Russia home 2003 (Russia playing for a point) See comment below
Switzerland away 2003: Swiss playing for a point, we needed to do something we hadn't done on the continent in 50 years, playing with a fairly depleted side as I recall. For Euro 2004, we were struggling generally in that group with losing our opening two matches against our direct rivals, should be written off for Kerr. At the time we were in a serious morale low, late win in Georgia away, drew in Albania, injury time winner at home to Albania. If I remember correctly, we were only in slight contention towards the end because other results went our way. The Basel 03 game had the same vibes off it as Anfield against the Dutch. Going with hopes of a big upset, but everyone knew in their heads that we had no chance of beating the Swiss on the night.
Swiss away 2004 vast improvement over the 2003 match, fair result
France away 2004 very credible point in Paris, O'shea could have made it a famous win for Irish sporting history.
Israel away 2005 sat back and got punished, but that's happened to McCarthy and Charlton as well, Poznan for example cost us Euro 92 qualification
Israel home 2005 freak result, could have won 3 nil on another afternoon
France home 2005 heading for credible nil all when Henry produced a moment of magic with 20 minutes left, on another night 0-0 draws with the French home and away would have highly regarded by the FAI
Switzerland 2005 limp performance alright, but every manager has had them. Charlton had an awful lot of them in 1995, even with some younger lads like Kennedy coming through.
Unlucky or not, Kerr was within a pube hair of getting that 1 nil win in Israel, that would have likely been enough for the FAI to keep him on for Euro 2008. Likewise, if John O'Shea had not missed an open goal in Paris and so on. The point is, Charlton and McCarthy also suffered these sort of results. Likewise Trap, O'Neill, and Kenny. Essentially, Kerr fell on his sword over 180 minutes with Israel and a degree the Swiss home match. I probably didn't mind too much back then if he was staying on or not
I remember after that Swiss matching thinking we were putrid. That said, I was 21 at the time and had no idea what the subsequent 16 years would bring. In hindsight, he certainly would have made a better go at Euro 2008 qualification, nothing spectacular perhaps would I don't think we would have lost 5-2 in Cyprus under Kerr, 1-1 would be a bad night at the office with him.
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Maybe, but every other manager had at least one competitive win against a team in the top 50, apart from Kenny so far
Charlton had three(Italy, Northern Ireland, and Portugal), McCarthy had six(Lithuania, Croatia, Yugoslavia, Netherlands, Iran, Saudi Arabia), Staunton beat Slovakia(37), Trapattoni beat Armenia(44), and O'Neill had five(Germany, Bosnia, Italy, Austria, and Wales)
Kerr had as many competitive games against teams in the top 80 as Staunton did, eight, and didn't manage to win any of them
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I see what you're saying, but I wouldn't judge him on those terms (the top 50 thing). I'm sure Charlton beating the likes of Scotland, Bulgaria, Hungary, Spain, Portugal, England, Italy) has more sway than Mick beating Iran or Saudi in 2001/2002 and so on.
For me it's about our relative strength at the time and how we performed overall. I'm not certain Kerr would have qualified us for Euro 2008, but if he was still around for the 2010 qualifiers he likely would have also got us to a playoff ahead of Bulgaria. The margins are fine. But certainly in 2003 - 2005 (the Kerr era) we were in a noticeable decline, I'm not sure that's all down to Kerr. It's open for debate though and I can't disprove it. I seem to remember a lot of Graham Kavanagh and Gary Doherty around then. The only thing I'm fairly sure about is, getting rid of Kerr seems short sighted looking back. I'd actually argue we've never been the same since that Russia 4-2 in Moscow in Mick's first qualifier. It seems the combination of the opening two results with the Saipan fallout was enough for Mick to move on.
I just sometimes wonder if Mick stayed on after those two defeats might we have had a resurgence once we steadied the ship in 2003. We went from being within a penalty shootout of the 2002 quarter finals to changing managers 4 months later. Certainly, the knock on effects from all that carried into the Stan era, and maybe further again. One of the biggest things I remember from that era aside from mangers is the relative underperforming of Duff, Keane ect in a green shirt. Again, I wonder if Mick might have got more out of them from 2003 - 08?
The problem in my opinion about judging Kerr is that we only have one full campaign to go off, and that campaign was extremely tight until relatively late on. All top 4 sides had drew with each other home and away until Henry's goal. The Israelis had a lot of luck, not just against us, the French only got going when Zidane came back late on and the Swiss did enough. Israel was definitely his undoing but competitively we don't have much to go off.
edit: I had a look there at the tail end of the group, if the following two things had happened:
Ireland draw 0-0 in Dublin versus France (instead of 1-0 France) France hang on for the final 10 minutes to beat Switzerland 1-0 (instead of Ludovic Magnin's 80th minute equaliser)
Avoid defeat to the Swiss in Dublin in a limp 0-0 and Kerr is guaranteed a playoff. Beating the Swiss would see us finish joint top, behind France on goal difference.
Playoff against Nedved era Czechs, Spain or Turkey, so more that likely we wouldn't have qualified.
Edited by dangere_here - 05 Apr 2022 at 4:24pm
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KingKenny
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Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 5:59pm |
Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:
I've clearly offended some people's sensibilities with my criticism of SK.
The GroupThink runs strong in some.
There's no difference between whether we lost the second last game instead of the last game - obviously. I think we're all allowed make inconsequential errors. The point is Ireland were competitive and right in it up until the final whistle went in the very last game - as we usually are, there or thereabouts. |
Strong Seymour Skinner vibes off this. Don't worry Luis it's the kids that are wrong
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Claret Murph
Paul McGrath
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Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 6:45pm |
Football is a fine line at times , now there were boos at the home draw to Azer and i am very sure there would have been many more in the home defeat to Lux if we had fans at the game . I think it had came to a point with SK that the two away games with Azer and Lux had he to get at least 4 points for him to save his job. Now if the Lux lad was a couple of mm onside i really do think they would have locked up shop and taken a 1-0 win , we would have finished behind them and i think SK would have gone . Fine margines in football .
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Lansdowne Road debut aged 52 and 201 days .
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Baldrick
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Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 6:59pm |
amazing no mention of the finest of Margins the game against Slovakia which couldn’t have been any closer.
If we win that we have a final playoff against the north to Go to the euros. That would have changed the atmosphere totally.
Edited by Baldrick - 05 Apr 2022 at 7:00pm
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AKA pedantic kunt
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GreenDodger93
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Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 7:17pm |
Baldrick wrote:
amazing no mention of the finest ofMargins the game against Slovakia which couldn’t have been any closer.
If we win that we have a final playoff against the north to Go to the euros. That would have changed the atmosphere totally.
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Exactly, the "what if" malarkey is pure bollox
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Paulie
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Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 7:18pm |
Baldrick wrote:
amazing no mention of the finest ofMargins the game against Slovakia which couldn’t have been any closer.
If we win that we have a final playoff against the north to Go to the euros. That would have changed the atmosphere totally.
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This. When lads go on about fine margins they nearly always fail to mention the ones that would counter their argument.
Edited by Paulie - 05 Apr 2022 at 7:19pm
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irishmufc
Robbie Keane
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Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 8:53pm |
Baldrick wrote:
amazing no mention of the finest ofMargins the game against Slovakia which couldn’t have been any closer.
If we win that we have a final playoff against the north to Go to the euros. That would have changed the atmosphere totally.
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It certainly would have but I think the North would've probably beaten us with their good home record in the final. Windsor Park is a harder place for away teams than the Aviva is tbh. We were going through transition and they had a more settled team albeit their squad limitations in comparison with ours at the time.
I was hoping we'd avoid playing them in a qualification showdown like that because to lose to them above all teams in qualifying for a major tournament would have been a catastrophe for Kenny's reign before it even really started.
Failing to get past Slovakia with a fantastic performance would be a much less bitter pill to swallow than the North qualifying for the Euros at our expense.
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Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
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Lenny82
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Posted: 05 Apr 2022 at 9:57pm |
dangere_here wrote:
tetsujin1979 wrote:
dangere_here wrote:
tetsujin1979 wrote:
And a two draws with Switzerland. And a loss to the same team in the previous qualifiers.
And taking off Robbie Keane at home when we needed a goal
And was lucky with a penalty save against Cyprus.And never winning a competitive game against a team in the top 80 in the world
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\While I agree with your general point, this one is a bit of a read herring.
Considering our own seeding at the time, the only chance Kerr would have ever had to achieve that would have been:
Russia home 2003 (Russia playing for a point) See comment below
Switzerland away 2003: Swiss playing for a point, we needed to do something we hadn't done on the continent in 50 years, playing with a fairly depleted side as I recall. For Euro 2004, we were struggling generally in that group with losing our opening two matches against our direct rivals, should be written off for Kerr. At the time we were in a serious morale low, late win in Georgia away, drew in Albania, injury time winner at home to Albania. If I remember correctly, we were only in slight contention towards the end because other results went our way. The Basel 03 game had the same vibes off it as Anfield against the Dutch. Going with hopes of a big upset, but everyone knew in their heads that we had no chance of beating the Swiss on the night.
Swiss away 2004 vast improvement over the 2003 match, fair result
France away 2004 very credible point in Paris, O'shea could have made it a famous win for Irish sporting history.
Israel away 2005 sat back and got punished, but that's happened to McCarthy and Charlton as well, Poznan for example cost us Euro 92 qualification
Israel home 2005 freak result, could have won 3 nil on another afternoon
France home 2005 heading for credible nil all when Henry produced a moment of magic with 20 minutes left, on another night 0-0 draws with the French home and away would have highly regarded by the FAI
Switzerland 2005 limp performance alright, but every manager has had them. Charlton had an awful lot of them in 1995, even with some younger lads like Kennedy coming through.
Unlucky or not, Kerr was within a pube hair of getting that 1 nil win in Israel, that would have likely been enough for the FAI to keep him on for Euro 2008. Likewise, if John O'Shea had not missed an open goal in Paris and so on. The point is, Charlton and McCarthy also suffered these sort of results. Likewise Trap, O'Neill, and Kenny. Essentially, Kerr fell on his sword over 180 minutes with Israel and a degree the Swiss home match. I probably didn't mind too much back then if he was staying on or not
I remember after that Swiss matching thinking we were putrid. That said, I was 21 at the time and had no idea what the subsequent 16 years would bring. In hindsight, he certainly would have made a better go at Euro 2008 qualification, nothing spectacular perhaps would I don't think we would have lost 5-2 in Cyprus under Kerr, 1-1 would be a bad night at the office with him.
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Maybe, but every other manager had at least one competitive win against a team in the top 50, apart from Kenny so far
Charlton had three(Italy, Northern Ireland, and Portugal), McCarthy had six(Lithuania, Croatia, Yugoslavia, Netherlands, Iran, Saudi Arabia), Staunton beat Slovakia(37), Trapattoni beat Armenia(44), and O'Neill had five(Germany, Bosnia, Italy, Austria, and Wales)
Kerr had as many competitive games against teams in the top 80 as Staunton did, eight, and didn't manage to win any of them
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I see what you're saying, but I wouldn't judge him on those terms (the top 50 thing). I'm sure Charlton beating the likes of Scotland, Bulgaria, Hungary, Spain, Portugal, England, Italy) has more sway than Mick beating Iran or Saudi in 2001/2002 and so on.
For me it's about our relative strength at the time and how we performed overall. I'm not certain Kerr would have qualified us for Euro 2008, but if he was still around for the 2010 qualifiers he likely would have also got us to a playoff ahead of Bulgaria. The margins are fine. But certainly in 2003 - 2005 (the Kerr era) we were in a noticeable decline, I'm not sure that's all down to Kerr. It's open for debate though and I can't disprove it. I seem to remember a lot of Graham Kavanagh and Gary Doherty around then. The only thing I'm fairly sure about is, getting rid of Kerr seems short sighted looking back. I'd actually argue we've never been the same since that Russia 4-2 in Moscow in Mick's first qualifier. It seems the combination of the opening two results with the Saipan fallout was enough for Mick to move on.
I just sometimes wonder if Mick stayed on after those two defeats might we have had a resurgence once we steadied the ship in 2003. We went from being within a penalty shootout of the 2002 quarter finals to changing managers 4 months later. Certainly, the knock on effects from all that carried into the Stan era, and maybe further again. One of the biggest things I remember from that era aside from mangers is the relative underperforming of Duff, Keane ect in a green shirt. Again, I wonder if Mick might have got more out of them from 2003 - 08?
The problem in my opinion about judging Kerr is that we only have one full campaign to go off, and that campaign was extremely tight until relatively late on. All top 4 sides had drew with each other home and away until Henry's goal. The Israelis had a lot of luck, not just against us, the French only got going when Zidane came back late on and the Swiss did enough. Israel was definitely his undoing but competitively we don't have much to go off.
edit: I had a look there at the tail end of the group, if the following two things had happened:
Ireland draw 0-0 in Dublin versus France (instead of 1-0 France) France hang on for the final 10 minutes to beat Switzerland 1-0 (instead of Ludovic Magnin's 80th minute equaliser)
Avoid defeat to the Swiss in Dublin in a limp 0-0 and Kerr is guaranteed a playoff. Beating the Swiss would see us finish joint top, behind France on goal difference.
Playoff against Nedved era Czechs, Spain or Turkey, so more that likely we wouldn't have qualified.
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Kerr had 75% of the 2004 campaign where he managed a total of 3 wins v Georgia and Albania, 2 of which came courtesy of late winners.
Kerr also had the luxury of having the best core group of players we are ever likely to see at one time.
He is a bitter auld bollix!
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notpropaganda73
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Posted: 06 Apr 2022 at 10:30am |
Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:
I've clearly offended some people's sensibilities with my criticism of SK.
The GroupThink runs strong in some.
There's no difference between whether we lost the second last game instead of the last game - obviously. I think we're all allowed make inconsequential errors. The point is Ireland were competitive and right in it up until the final whistle went in the very last game - as we usually are, there or thereabouts. |
Can you not just make your points without resorting to fanboys, groupthink and all that sort of nonsense like
Kenny would've been sacked for the same results in prior campaigns just like previous managers were - yeah most likely. Context is everything though isn't it? Kerr seems (to me) to be annoyed at Kenny for being given the time that he never had.
I'm not really interested in whether Kerr should have been given more time or not. I think it was fair enough after Luxembourg to think Kenny should go, it wasn't a crazy position to take after that result. But I think what a lot of the "fanboys" are "groupthinking", is that a lot of the criticisms of Kenny up to that point were pretty unfair. That people were wanting things as they used to be, even though how things were had gotten us to this ridiculous low. The reality was that the "old" way wasn't working, and hadn't worked for a long time prior to SK, so the "fanboys" were thinking - let's see this play out because things were f**king dire before.
Had he been sacked at that point, I don't think anyone could really say it wasn't coming, but I think it would have been a huge mistake and thankfully at the minute he seems to have turned it around and there's a great positive buzz about the team now.
Kerr seems annoyed that people are being positive about the team when Kenny lost at home to Luxembourg. His chat on the SC podcast I thought was really indicative. I just can't believe that he takes such an issue with Stephen Kenny calling his players excellent, but that seemed to really grate at him. It was v.petty imo. I can understand Kerr being bitter and annoyed about how his time as Ireland manager went, but I don't understand him taking a position of naysaying Kenny's reign as a result.
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dangere_here
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Posted: 06 Apr 2022 at 1:16pm |
Lenny82 wrote:
dangere_here wrote:
tetsujin1979 wrote:
dangere_here wrote:
tetsujin1979 wrote:
And a two draws with Switzerland. And a loss to the same team in the previous qualifiers.
And taking off Robbie Keane at home when we needed a goal
And was lucky with a penalty save against Cyprus.And never winning a competitive game against a team in the top 80 in the world
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\While I agree with your general point, this one is a bit of a read herring.
Considering our own seeding at the time, the only chance Kerr would have ever had to achieve that would have been:
Russia home 2003 (Russia playing for a point) See comment below
Switzerland away 2003: Swiss playing for a point, we needed to do something we hadn't done on the continent in 50 years, playing with a fairly depleted side as I recall. For Euro 2004, we were struggling generally in that group with losing our opening two matches against our direct rivals, should be written off for Kerr. At the time we were in a serious morale low, late win in Georgia away, drew in Albania, injury time winner at home to Albania. If I remember correctly, we were only in slight contention towards the end because other results went our way. The Basel 03 game had the same vibes off it as Anfield against the Dutch. Going with hopes of a big upset, but everyone knew in their heads that we had no chance of beating the Swiss on the night.
Swiss away 2004 vast improvement over the 2003 match, fair result
France away 2004 very credible point in Paris, O'shea could have made it a famous win for Irish sporting history.
Israel away 2005 sat back and got punished, but that's happened to McCarthy and Charlton as well, Poznan for example cost us Euro 92 qualification
Israel home 2005 freak result, could have won 3 nil on another afternoon
France home 2005 heading for credible nil all when Henry produced a moment of magic with 20 minutes left, on another night 0-0 draws with the French home and away would have highly regarded by the FAI
Switzerland 2005 limp performance alright, but every manager has had them. Charlton had an awful lot of them in 1995, even with some younger lads like Kennedy coming through.
Unlucky or not, Kerr was within a pube hair of getting that 1 nil win in Israel, that would have likely been enough for the FAI to keep him on for Euro 2008. Likewise, if John O'Shea had not missed an open goal in Paris and so on. The point is, Charlton and McCarthy also suffered these sort of results. Likewise Trap, O'Neill, and Kenny. Essentially, Kerr fell on his sword over 180 minutes with Israel and a degree the Swiss home match. I probably didn't mind too much back then if he was staying on or not
I remember after that Swiss matching thinking we were putrid. That said, I was 21 at the time and had no idea what the subsequent 16 years would bring. In hindsight, he certainly would have made a better go at Euro 2008 qualification, nothing spectacular perhaps would I don't think we would have lost 5-2 in Cyprus under Kerr, 1-1 would be a bad night at the office with him.
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Maybe, but every other manager had at least one competitive win against a team in the top 50, apart from Kenny so far
Charlton had three(Italy, Northern Ireland, and Portugal), McCarthy had six(Lithuania, Croatia, Yugoslavia, Netherlands, Iran, Saudi Arabia), Staunton beat Slovakia(37), Trapattoni beat Armenia(44), and O'Neill had five(Germany, Bosnia, Italy, Austria, and Wales)
Kerr had as many competitive games against teams in the top 80 as Staunton did, eight, and didn't manage to win any of them
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I see what you're saying, but I wouldn't judge him on those terms (the top 50 thing). I'm sure Charlton beating the likes of Scotland, Bulgaria, Hungary, Spain, Portugal, England, Italy) has more sway than Mick beating Iran or Saudi in 2001/2002 and so on.
For me it's about our relative strength at the time and how we performed overall. I'm not certain Kerr would have qualified us for Euro 2008, but if he was still around for the 2010 qualifiers he likely would have also got us to a playoff ahead of Bulgaria. The margins are fine. But certainly in 2003 - 2005 (the Kerr era) we were in a noticeable decline, I'm not sure that's all down to Kerr. It's open for debate though and I can't disprove it. I seem to remember a lot of Graham Kavanagh and Gary Doherty around then. The only thing I'm fairly sure about is, getting rid of Kerr seems short sighted looking back. I'd actually argue we've never been the same since that Russia 4-2 in Moscow in Mick's first qualifier. It seems the combination of the opening two results with the Saipan fallout was enough for Mick to move on.
I just sometimes wonder if Mick stayed on after those two defeats might we have had a resurgence once we steadied the ship in 2003. We went from being within a penalty shootout of the 2002 quarter finals to changing managers 4 months later. Certainly, the knock on effects from all that carried into the Stan era, and maybe further again. One of the biggest things I remember from that era aside from mangers is the relative underperforming of Duff, Keane ect in a green shirt. Again, I wonder if Mick might have got more out of them from 2003 - 08?
The problem in my opinion about judging Kerr is that we only have one full campaign to go off, and that campaign was extremely tight until relatively late on. All top 4 sides had drew with each other home and away until Henry's goal. The Israelis had a lot of luck, not just against us, the French only got going when Zidane came back late on and the Swiss did enough. Israel was definitely his undoing but competitively we don't have much to go off.
edit: I had a look there at the tail end of the group, if the following two things had happened:
Ireland draw 0-0 in Dublin versus France (instead of 1-0 France) France hang on for the final 10 minutes to beat Switzerland 1-0 (instead of Ludovic Magnin's 80th minute equaliser)
Avoid defeat to the Swiss in Dublin in a limp 0-0 and Kerr is guaranteed a playoff. Beating the Swiss would see us finish joint top, behind France on goal difference.
Playoff against Nedved era Czechs, Spain or Turkey, so more that likely we wouldn't have qualified.
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Kerr had 75% of the 2004 campaign where he managed a total of 3 wins v Georgia and Albania, 2 of which came courtesy of late winners.
Kerr also had the luxury of having the best core group of players we are ever likely to see at one time.
He is a bitter auld bollix! |
Certainly Kerr seems to have a strange attitude to Kenny. Kenny used to manage the U21s at Pats around the same time as Kerr moved on from Richmond Park, I can only think maybe they didn't see eye to eye?
I would have thought either Charlton, Hand or Giles had the strongest core of players. As I said about that campaign we were is a relative decline for the time. Team of grafters such as Carsley, Kinsella, Healy as a replacement for Keane, Gary Doherty our talisman was our top goalscorer in the group If you look at the Mick's last teams and Kerr's teams, there's not much difference.
I'm convinced that freaky 4-2 loss in Moscow fecked us longer term. We hit the bar, Duffer went off injured early on after almost scoring himself and they got a few lucky breaks on the day, we got it back to 3-2, with the Doc scoring our first, and we had the wind in our sails. Phil Babb came off the bench to score a jammy own goal, less than 60 seconds after Clinton scored. Full match in on youtube and watched it a while ago, 4-2 was very harsh, and we could as easily have won 4-2 that day. The Swiss at home was similar, we got it back to 1-1 and were pressing for the winner with the crowd going bananas and got hit with a late sucker punch. I know it's a cliché but the margins are fine indeed. 2 points in those matches and Mick would have had the campaign I'm fairly sure.
Given and Finnan were fairly dependable around then, but Duff and Keane underwhelmed in a green shirt through much of the mid to late 2000s, individual matches here and there aside. And after that you have the likes of Carr, Cunningham, Clinton Morrison and so on. Honest pros but punching above their weight at international level.
Edited by dangere_here - 06 Apr 2022 at 1:44pm
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BrenC
Davey Langan
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Posted: 06 Apr 2022 at 2:16pm |
Ye but those ‘honest pros’ like Cunningham and Carr played over 300 premier league games and spent almost all their careers in the top division.
Coleman aside, does our whole team currently have 300 prem appearances combined?
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Team Emmet
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dangere_here
Kevin Kilbane
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Posted: 06 Apr 2022 at 5:08pm |
Mod edit: pointless trolling. Make your point without name checking other posters unless necessary.
Edited by Sham157 - 06 Apr 2022 at 6:55pm
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Hotlips_Hoolahan
Jack Charlton
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Posted: 01 Jun 2022 at 11:49pm |
Latest dispatch from Kerr.
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