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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tony Cousins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2020 at 11:24am
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

I find it hard to believe he was in Genoa ( I think that's the game he alluded to or if not it was the Dutch game in Palermo) where he says he was happy we got through and saw some FAI officials crying and was bemused and felt sorry for them, as he felt that level of elation every week at PatsErmm
Sure you did Brian.



Pats won the title in 1990 for the first time in 34 years, and he was the manager.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doherty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2020 at 11:26am
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But I can't understand how, for someone who talks so passionately about playing positive, progressive football, he set up his Ireland teams so conservatively. It was grim at times (Switzerland twice, Cyprus) and the Israel games were just baffling. We really weren't far away. 

You could say this about any manager really tho. Every manager or ex-manager talks a good game but not many of them can actually back it up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2020 at 11:28am
Originally posted by MC Hammered MC Hammered wrote:

Originally posted by avfc avfc wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

I find it hard to believe he was in Genoa ( I think that's the game he alluded to or if not it was the Dutch game in Palermo) where he says he was happy we got through and saw some FAI officials crying and was bemused and felt sorry for them, as he felt that level of elation every week at PatsErmm
Sure you did Brian.

 
That was cringey.
 
The purists just hate the fact that hoofball got us to 6th in the World rankings.
 
 

I'm what you could call a purist and I loved a lot of our play under Jack. Granted I was only a kid but there was a massive difference in approach between what we got 1986-1994 (the team was over the line from that point) and the hoofball that came years after. 

For a start, we pressed high and committed bodies forward. Fair enough, no chances were taken at the back and the ball went from full backs to front men early but there was a clear understanding of the plan. The midfield runners worked their socks off picking up loose ball in the opposition half. 
There was an excitement in the tempo of our performances particularly against "bigger" teams. 
That's totally at odds with later managers who sat in against stronger nations and tried to "not concede and maybe nick one from a set piece". Boring as f**k

Jack was a systematic football thinker

We were one of the only countries at the 1990 World Cup with an actual tactical idea

I often think to myself "why do we never see a Bonner type kickout?" nowadays?

Why do we never see a big man/smaller man combination? 

Most things come back into fashion at some point

I'm sure I read an article not that long ago, may be seven or eight years ago, about why nobody played 3-5-2 anymore, and why it likely wouldn't ever happen again

Within a couple of years, 3-5-2 was back in vogue in a big way
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Four-Four-Two Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2020 at 11:32am
the way charlton played will never be in vogue again, save perhaps a team desperately trying to stave off relegation or the likes. it is pretty much a tactic for teams who think they can't compete with others on a traditional skill basis, so its obviously of no use to teams competing to win titles
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2020 at 11:44am
Jack basically changed football as it was played at an international level. As he referred to it "put em under pressure". Hastle and harry teams up the pitch and force them to play their game (which would have involved knocking the ball around a bit), and force errors and mistakes. Target men who could hold up the ball (Quinn and Cascarino) played into that. But if you think about goals scored, and in particular crucial goals during Jacks tenure, it was the application of pressure after a long ball from Bonner. It wasn't "hit and hope", it required skill or pressure to be applied by other players. Think the OG by Spain in Dublin in 1989, Sheedy v England and Quinn against the Netherlands in 1990. Even at a weird level, Baia's own goal in 1995.

Hoofball is far more generic and involves drop offs, think Robbie's goal in Bari in 2009, Given from defence, Folan gets the touch, Keane scores the goal. Or even more rudimentary, the Duffy goals in 2017 which came from dead-balls from defence, or deeper midfield
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Claret Murph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2020 at 11:44am
Funny when i think of Kerr i can never get the pitcure out of my mind when he was smashed out of his head in the corner of the 24 hour bar in Astana .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horsebox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2020 at 11:49am
Originally posted by Claret Murph Claret Murph wrote:


Funny when i think of Kerr i can never get the pitcure out of my mind when he was smashed out of his head in the corner of the 24 hour bar in Astana .


Gargled out of it having a go at Trap's record .

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sausy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2020 at 11:51am
Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Originally posted by Claret Murph Claret Murph wrote:


Funny when i think of Kerr i can never get the pitcure out of my mind when he was smashed out of his head in the corner of the 24 hour bar in Astana .


Gargled out of it having a go at Trap's record .

 
Had a fair few on him too in the bar in the Faroes before the game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tetsujin1979 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2020 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by sausy sausy wrote:

Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Originally posted by Claret Murph Claret Murph wrote:


Funny when i think of Kerr i can never get the pitcure out of my mind when he was smashed out of his head in the corner of the 24 hour bar in Astana .


Gargled out of it having a go at Trap's record .

 
Had a fair few on him too in the bar in the Faroes before the game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2020 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Jack basically changed football as it was played at an international level. As he referred to it "put em under pressure". Hastle and harry teams up the pitch and force them to play their game (which would have involved knocking the ball around a bit), and force errors and mistakes. Target men who could hold up the ball (Quinn and Cascarino) played into that. But if you think about goals scored, and in particular crucial goals during Jacks tenure, it was the application of pressure after a long ball from Bonner. It wasn't "hit and hope", it required skill or pressure to be applied by other players. Think the OG by Spain in Dublin in 1989, Sheedy v England and Quinn against the Netherlands in 1990. Even at a weird level, Baia's own goal in 1995.

Hoofball is far more generic and involves drop offs, think Robbie's goal in Bari in 2009, Given from defence, Folan gets the touch, Keane scores the goal. Or even more rudimentary, the Duffy goals in 2017 which came from dead-balls from defence, or deeper midfield
On the most basic level any long ball is hit and hope, ie. you don't know what the outcome will be

The point is you hit it long knowing there's a half decent chance something will happen - either your big man gets a head to it and sticks it in the net, like Cascarino did against England at Lansdowne Road, your big man nods it down for somebody else to get on the end of like Quinn did for Robbie Keane against Germany, or the pressure created by the hoof creates a mistake, as it did for the goals against England and Holland at Italia '90

Given's hoof up to Folan for the goal against Italy in '09 had a plan, it's a basic plan but it's a plan

And there's nothing to say that tactic can't work no matter if it's 1990 or 2020


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MC Hammered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2020 at 1:51pm

I take the point that various tactics come back into vogue. However, if a decent team has a high defensive line then playing long ball to a lanky front man isnt likely to get you very far against them. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2020 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by MC Hammered MC Hammered wrote:


I take the point that various tactics come back into vogue. However, if a decent team has a high defensive line then playing long ball to a lanky front man isnt likely to get you very far against them. 
A team with a high line is always vulnerable to a ball over the top, be that from the ground by an outfield player to find a well timed run through to beat the offside trap, or from a backpedal 

Holland started off with a high line from Bonner's hoof in 1990, but they had to furiously backpedal, creating the mistake

All tactics have a place, the mistake is in thinking that certain tactics don't have a place
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2020 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

On the most basic level any long ball is hit and hope, ie. you don't know what the outcome will be

The point is you hit it long knowing there's a half decent chance something will happen - either your big man gets a head to it and sticks it in the net, like Cascarino did against England at Lansdowne Road, your big man nods it down for somebody else to get on the end of like Quinn did for Robbie Keane against Germany, or the pressure created by the hoof creates a mistake, as it did for the goals against England and Holland at Italia '90

Given's hoof up to Folan for the goal against Italy in '09 had a plan, it's a basic plan but it's a plan

And there's nothing to say that tactic can't work no matter if it's 1990 or 2020



I'd agree with a lot of that, but I think there is a spectrum of "hoof ball", and I think nobody knows it better than Ireland fans who have watched various iterations of it over the years. The style employed in recent years has been the weakest by far, as it almost relied on dead-ball situations, which is difference to the variation which can happen from "in-play" long-ball, like the Cascarino goal in 1990, and almost was the product of waves of pressure. This is different to the hit the big man on top for the drop off to the smaller striker (ala Quinn/Aldo or Folan/Keane). And this is certainly different to win a free kick or corner, and send the big men up to win the header from the deadfall.

The truth is, the first type of tactic may still have a place, even if it would look direct. The second, would have its difficulties the moment you come up against stronger defenders, and finally the third type is doomed to failure, especially in games where you come up against technically better players. So, if you're going to play it, it has to be in conjunction with something else.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2020 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by MC Hammered MC Hammered wrote:


I take the point that various tactics come back into vogue. However, if a decent team has a high defensive line then playing long ball to a lanky front man isnt likely to get you very far against them. 
A team with a high line is always vulnerable to a ball over the top, be that from the ground by an outfield player to find a well timed run through to beat the offside trap, or from a backpedal 

Holland started off with a high line from Bonner's hoof in 1990, but they had to furiously backpedal, creating the mistake

All tactics have a place, the mistake is in thinking that certain tactics don't have a place
Previously yes, but not so much now that teams have developed "sweeper keepers", who are far more ready to come out of their area, whilst being so much better with their feet.

Plus coincidentally, VAR now makes it harder to beat the offside trap.

And even for teams whose attackers can exploit a high defensive line (eg Leicester/Vardy or Spurs/Son), these days it v.rarely follows a long kick out from GK or CB. More often it follows a clever through ball from midfield eg Maddison or Kane.


Edited by Territorial - 03 Dec 2020 at 3:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irishmufc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2021 at 5:48pm
Kerr's pronunciations of players crack me up. "Bally" the United defender LOL 

The funniest was when he called the Dynamo Kiev Ultras who had their tops off in the cold "The Hardy Bucks" 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ripbomb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2021 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Kerr's pronunciations of players crack me up. "Bally" the United defender LOL 

The funniest was when he called the Dynamo Kiev Ultras who had their tops off in the cold "The Hardy Bucks" 
Remember the former Leicester and Turkey player Muzzy Isset? Kerr pronounced him " Izzy Musset"
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