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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jebediah Springfield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2020 at 2:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nialler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2020 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by Mr Brick Mr Brick wrote:

Originally posted by Nialler Nialler wrote:

Originally posted by Mr Brick Mr Brick wrote:

Originally posted by Nialler Nialler wrote:

I don't blame McCarthy totally at all. I mean he didn't appoint himself. But the irish soccer economy has been a top heavy incentivisation of degenerecy for years. For eg Bielsa took over a poor leeds squad and coached them out of it and earned around the same money as Mick. Thats is the definition of insanity.Lots of good things happening now and I think the senior team should play an aspirational style of football we are in all our age groups. I mean I am just looking at this thinking there are plenty of players who are past their sell by date in terms of age profile with young lads who need the experience as soon as possible to develop (Whelan vs Molumby). Playing the like of collins etc is insanity as his ceiling is so low.  He has probably peaked as a bottom of the league championship club player.  bite the bullet now and throw one of the young forwards in instead of paying double later. Most international teams have recognised this. We are playing Glen Whelan when his career is over, not to slate the lad but its just reality. Anyway to say we dont have the players when we have plenty of players at the top level is to diminish what a top class coach can do... which is plenty.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, although "top heavy incentivisation of degenerecy" put me on the ropes. Molumby is promising but raw. We've been up, down and all around here about Glenn Whelan. Whether you agree with him being there or not  - he was one of our best players. Wages in football generally are out the window. McCarthy getting £1.2 million bothers you but Hogan earns £1.8m, Greg Cunningham £1.1m, Harry Artur £2m, Callum Robinson £1.3m. Even Kevin Long at Blackburn earns 1.2m. Paul Lambert probably gets more for not doing a very good job managing Ipswich in the third tier. 

I have made the point Croatia pay 4-600k for their manager and If you stop time and say well Whelan has been solid so it was the right decision we will be in this situation again in 5 years if we keep doing this over and over. Players get silly wages no doubt  but we are overpaying by a wide margin and we are not paying thise wages the clubs are, i have a problem because that is huge money to the grassroots. The leaving bonus that pays 10 times what our league champions get. I mean thats insane. Bringing McCarthy in and paying something like 4.5 mill when we get what? 7 mill if we qualify now? We were 3rd seeds. You pay a man that much ? When you express both as a percentage vs chances of qualifying...he is a total failure and it was a terrible gamble. Appointing Stephen Kenny for 400k a year with no leaving bonus / 7 million Uefa money... you dont have to be a gambling man to realise how re*arded Delaney was.  The most shocking thing is John Delaney's qualification is supposedly accountancy. 

 
But we won't be doing it over and over again. Whelan is 36. Kenny is unlikely to pick him or other older players. Whelan will likely retire after our Euro involvement - or sooner, given the current tenuous situation. I have never seen the figures you quote regarding McCarthy bonuses. They are ridiculous if true. I don't think Mick McCarthy a failure - I'd leave it at disappointment in this tenure. I've avoided the Delaney debate. Show me the worst comments about him and I'll agree with them.

Point taken but I am only trying to point out the cycle and why its just better to cut ourselves adrift right away from Mick era. People are saying "but it would be a disaster start if Kenny failed to qualify" 
He wont be thinking that way, he will be thinking its a great chance to get off to a great start and its two away games nobody expects us to get through really. Imagine having 7-8 U21's at a euros in the summer of 21. Some experience it would be but no... some weird we owe McCarthy something and lets have a last hurra for Glen Whelan instead. I just cant relate to that thinking one bit like. The FAI has to be ruthless here and show bollix making a tough decision early. the bonuses are real. 1.3 or 1.7 million leaving bonus I nearly puked reading the numbers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2020 at 3:28pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Mr Brick Mr Brick wrote:

"To also suggest that we are ranked 3rd and that it would only be a bonus if we did better is an astonishing ridiculous position."
Nothing astonishing or ridiculous. We were ranked third and we finished third.

For the 2016 Euro Qualifiers, NI were ranked 5th in our group.

We ended up finishing top, something which had never been done before by any team, with 6 wins, 3 draws and 1 defeat (away to Romania).

I mention this because in an interview the other day, Michael O'Neill admitted that on taking over the NI job:

"In my heart of hearts, I didn't believe Northern Ireland had a strong enough squad to qualify for a tournament. I didn't think we had enough players at a high enough level to qualify, but I did think we could be competitive."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51933114

Make of that what you will.


If we just applied Bricks logic, playing the games is something of a pointless exercise. 

How teams are ranked before a tournament is not used as a prediction as to where they will finish but rather a current standing to group teams based on a current snapshot.

Mr Brick, frequently wrong but never in doubt. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tetsujin1979 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2020 at 6:21pm
Michael O'Neill would have been sacked from any other international team before the 2016 qualifiers - the win in the first qualifier against Hungary was only his second in the nineteen games he'd been in charge for at that stage, a thirty three month run that included losses to Luxembourg and Azerbaijan. The only other win was an admittedly impressive 1-0 victory against Russia, more than a year previously. The team had only scored three goals in the 12 months leading up to the same game in Budapest, two of them in the loss to Luxembourg.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AonSceal19 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2020 at 7:28pm
Originally posted by Mr Brick Mr Brick wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Mr Brick with another handful of ridiculous comments.

McCarty sets the teams tactical approach to games and a lot of irish fans are critical of that approach and consider it negative and not very effective. 

The Denmark manager also criticised irelands tactical approach as ugly. However bad the tactics are, it they are effective then you can accept that the games are not entertaining to watch. But they are clearly not effective nor are they entertaining. 

This has been the same under various manager for nearly ten years, from trap, o'Neill and now McCarthy. I agree that we dont have world class players but neither do a lot of teams and they dont play toxic football like us.

To also suggest that we are ranked 3rd and that it would only be a bonus if we did better is an astonishing ridiculous position.

I for one would like to see us approach games differently now, I'm not suggesting we'll even be a better team but maybe let's not keep trying the same thing and expect different results.

If we lose, let's learn from it and get better.

"McCarty sets the teams tactical approach to games and a lot of irish fans are critical of that approach and consider it negative and not very effective." 
Yes, he does - that's because he's the manager. Disagree? Embrace the wonders of democracy or, preferably, bugger off to Wuhan. 

"The Denmark manager also criticised irelands tactical approach as ugly. However bad the tactics are, it they are effective then you can accept that the games are not entertaining to watch. But they are clearly not effective nor are they entertaining." 
1) I don't give a fat rat's arse what the Denmark manager thinks.
2) Poor entertainment? Don't go, switch off. Watch Neighbours. Hug a toilet roll. Stop dribbling.

"This has been the same under various manager for nearly ten years, from trap, o'Neill and now McCarthy. I agree that we dont have world class players but neither do a lot of teams and they dont play toxic football like us."
How traumatic for you. Is it, by chance, those awful "various managers" who won 10 league titles in top European leagues, two European Cups (also two as players), a swag of titles in Scotland and solid managerial records at club level in England? The ones who got talent-laden Ireland  to three major Finals?But, of course, you and your buddies know more. 

"To also suggest that we are ranked 3rd and that it would only be a bonus if we did better is an astonishing ridiculous position."
Nothing astonishing or ridiculous. We were ranked third and we finished third. 

"I for one would like to see us approach games differently now, I'm not suggesting we'll even be a better team but maybe let's not keep trying the same thing and expect different results. If we lose, let's learn from it and get better."
A beautiful, beautiful thing.  Someone's crying Lord, Kumbaya . . .



McCarthy was always supposed to be a short term appointment by the FAI’s own admission. They gave him a short term contract with the remit of qualifying for Euro 2020. Ireland were third seeds in the group but his objective was to qualify for Euro 2020 not to maintain the status quo and just finish 3rd above Georgia and Gibraltar. He has a very lucrative contract with an excessive wage in my opinion that he will never get again in his career. No sympathy from me with the delay of the euros. He decided to continue the tradition of negative anti football and he can die by the sword. Stephen Kenny on the other hand was always supposed to be a long term plan. As a result the immediate results of the team won’t be as important as it was for mick. I don’t expect us to qualify for the World Cup where you essentially have to be a top 13 team in UEFA which we are way off. However by 2024 I would be expecting us to be playing a brand of football that has been alien to us in the last decade with a lot of young new players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Green Cockade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2020 at 7:35pm
A lot of fans wanted Michael O'Neill sacked but he turned it round very impressively with a limited squad playing a certain way and giving their all. Managers are too often victims of short termism and even Alex Ferguson came perilously close to premature oblivion at Old Trafford. I don't always agree with Mick McCarthy's team selections - for some unfathomable reason he never consults me before he picks his teams, or asks my advice on tactics-but I accept he knows a bit more about it than the average public house loudmouth. The fate of Ipswich since he left should provide a salutary lesson.

Edited by Green Cockade - 19 Mar 2020 at 7:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Banjaxed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2020 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by Green Cockade Green Cockade wrote:

A lot of fans wanted Michael O'Neill sacked but he turned it round very impressively with a limited squad playing a certain way and giving their all. Managers are too often victims of short termism and even Alex Ferguson came perilously close to premature oblivion at Old Trafford. I don't always agree with Mick McCarthy's team selections - for some unfathomable reason he never consults me before he picks his teams, or asks my advice on tactics-but I accept he knows a bit more about it than the average public house loudmouth. The fate of Ipswich since he left should provide a salutary lesson.

Let's close down the forum then. We know that Mick has more experience than us, but that doesn't disqualify people from an opinion. What's the point of the jaysus forum otherwise?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2020 at 10:04pm
Originally posted by tetsujin1979 tetsujin1979 wrote:

Michael O'Neill would have been sacked from any other international team before the 2016 qualifiers - the win in the first qualifier against Hungary was only his second in the nineteen games he'd been in charge for at that stage, a thirty three month run that included losses to Luxembourg and Azerbaijan. The only other win was an admittedly impressive 1-0 victory against Russia, more than a year previously. The team had only scored three goals in the 12 months leading up to the same game in Budapest, two of them in the loss to Luxembourg.

There were a number of reasons why he wasn't sacked, some "allowable", some not.

Re the latter, you have to remember that results, performances, player morale and crowds had been terrible before he took over, so expectations amongst the IFA were accordingly lowered. Plus the IFA didn't want the expense of sacking/replacing him.

Re the former, he still "had the dressing room" (i.e. players were heeding call-ups where previously they would pull out with 'Ryan-Giggs-Hamstring').

More importantly, while results were terrible, performances were undoubtedly much better - in several games, we came away wondering how the hell we'd only drawn, or got beaten.
For example, we went out to Portugal (Ronaldo and all) and were leading 1-0 from half an hour until Postiga got a scrappy, hardly-deserved equalizer ten minutes from time. Then in the home game, we fell behind early but turned it round to go 2-1 up, before Brunt AND Lafferty got sent off, meaning with 9 vs 10 (Portugal also had a red card), a half-fit Ronaldo now had space to score three goals in the last 20 minutes .
Home to Luxembourg, we took the lead early, battered them but couldn't score a second, then they got a breakaway equaliser with 4 minutes to go. And in the away game, we took the lead early, thought we had it won, then were suckered by two Luxy goals (fair play to them) before McAuley equalised with 10 minutes left. At this point we should have closed it down, but no, McAuley took a fit of the head staggers, went charging forward for the winner and they scored their third from a long ball through the middle of our defence in the dying minutes

In fact, conceding late was a blight on that campaign - as Michael pointed out afterwards, had games finished after 75 minutes, we'd have had seven(?) extra points and the group table would have looked far more respectable.

All that said, I have it on good authority that had we lost our final qualifier in Israel, Michael's position was under real threat, but we got a decent enough draw, he survived and the rest is history. Thumbs Up


Edited by Territorial - 19 Mar 2020 at 10:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2020 at 10:09pm
Originally posted by Green Cockade Green Cockade wrote:

A lot of fans wanted Michael O'Neill sacked but he turned it round very impressively with a limited squad playing a certain way and giving their all. Managers are too often victims of short termism and even Alex Ferguson came perilously close to premature oblivion at Old Trafford.

Some did, no doubt, but fewer than you might expect considering the results.

Certainly, there was never the vitriol against him that his predecessor Worthington had suffered.

Agree about short-termism, though.

Originally posted by Green Cockade Green Cockade wrote:

I don't always agree with Mick McCarthy's team selections - for some unfathomable reason he never consults me before he picks his teams, or asks my advice on tactics - but I accept he knows a bit more about it than the average public house loudmouth.

Fair enough, but he's not being paid to know more about the game than the average public house loudmouth, he's being paid to know more than the manager in the opposition dugout, who in most cases is being paid a helluva lot less than Mick.




Edited by Territorial - 19 Mar 2020 at 10:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King_Kenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 12:03am
Originally posted by Green Cockade Green Cockade wrote:

A lot of fans wanted Michael O'Neill sacked but he turned it round very impressively with a limited squad playing a certain way and giving their all. Managers are too often victims of short termism and even Alex Ferguson came perilously close to premature oblivion at Old Trafford. I don't always agree with Mick McCarthy's team selections - for some unfathomable reason he never consults me before he picks his teams, or asks my advice on tactics-but I accept he knows a bit more about it than the average public house loudmouth. The fate of Ipswich since he left should provide a salutary lesson.
Jesus wept! Give him another 10 years then. Pub loudmouths. Post up your ticket receipts !
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Mick is still manager in 2024 in my Football manager 2020 save game 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pipkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 8:40am
Mr Brick is correct. In fact, we have the weakest squad in 50 years. 

Even more reason as to why McCarthy wasn’t the right man. It was a short term fix to get us to these Championships before Delaney sailed into his UEFA gig and whatever will be will be.

Now is the time to build, not continue to prolong the inevitable. There are championships in 2022 and 2024 that we have some kind of hope of performing in. Euro 2021 will be a repeat of Euro 2012 if we do qualify
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Green Cockade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 9:03am
Scoring goals is always going to be a major problem with the current squad. Scott Hogan might yet come good if he can replicate what he has being doing for Birmingham, and Mick certainly rates him, but the team lacks creativity and does not have a natural goal scorer in the mould of Robbie Keane or Joe Lapira.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Artie Ziff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 10:24am
Originally posted by E2016 E2016 wrote:

Micks tenure has been a failure.  He accomplished nothing. We were essentially qualified for the playoff before he arrived so to call the playoff "his" is just wrong.

It's time to move on. There will most likely be both the Nations League and one or two WC qualifiers before the next euros. Mick should not be in charge for any of that.

if there was no Nations League, we would be in a play off like Euro 2016.
It would damage this forums' reputation
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by Mr Brick Mr Brick wrote:

Nice read, Territorial. Your comments on the Luxembourg letdowns are interesting. You could say Luxembourg were NI's Georgia. Some here suggest if our lot had played more attacking football when away to Georgia the draw would be sugar coated while losing to Switzerland and Denmark acceptable. We would have "had a go". McCarthy is now necklaced at the very mention of Georgia.
Didn't see ROI vs Georgia, but my point about NI vs Luxy was that both results were in the "S hit Happens" category, and while disappointed and concerned, most NI fans who attended accepted them as such (McAuley's ill-discipline excepted).
Was it the same with Georgia, or was it that with Mick's selection and tactics, the s hit was always liable to follow?

Originally posted by Mr Brick Mr Brick wrote:

On your other comment: He is paid to outsmart the other coach in the first instance. It's then up to the players at his disposal to finish the job. In too many games in recent times we couldn't score - not exclusively because of Mick's tactics (he's not blameless), but because we hadn't the skills on the pitch. 
Obviously the players have a major responsibility to implement a manager's instructions. But in the end, it doesn't matter how much players like a manager personally, if they don't believe in him and his methods, they will invariably fail to perform to their maximum (see Stan Staunton for an extreme example).

With NI, I always contrast Sammy McIlroy and Michael O'Neill. It was obvious that the NI players liked Good Old Sammy, but that was never enough, the experienced players at least knew that he wasn't up to the task of international management, so that an already difficult job (small playing pool) became all-but-impossible under his management and leadership.

Whereas with Michael, the players always believed that if they followed his instructions, they would have a chance. And this conviction was maintained even during a difficult start, when the results simply would not come despite their best efforts.



Edited by Territorial - 20 Mar 2020 at 1:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by Mr Brick Mr Brick wrote:

Do you believe such a scenario is relevant to Mick McCarthy in this campaign - i.e. respect for him as a person and belief in his methods? If so, could you speculate as to which players would be involved. 
No, I'm not qualified to comment and in positing the "loss of conviction" theory, I'm only speculating.

But sometimes people think that when a manager "loses the dressing room", it's because he's actively disliked by the players, yet that's not always true. Or he may be disliked by a few individuals, but not by the group as a whole.

It is even possible that a manager is disliked by many (all?) of his players, but still gets results, because the players accept that his methods are sound and will get results if followed. Two examples of this from Scotland were Jock Wallace and Jim McLean, both of whom could be right bastards, but still got results. (Michael O'Neill could tell you a few stories about McLean!).

Getting back to Mick Mc, could it be that the players generally like him and respect his past record as player and manager, but deep down, they believe that his time in management has come and gone?

I'm sure that that was the case with Martin O'Neill (after the initial shine wore off), and same at Forest after he went there as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote E2016 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2020 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by Artie Ziff Artie Ziff wrote:

Originally posted by E2016 E2016 wrote:

Micks tenure has been a failure.  He accomplished nothing. We were essentially qualified for the playoff before he arrived so to call the playoff "his" is just wrong.

It's time to move on. There will most likely be both the Nations League and one or two WC qualifiers before the next euros. Mick should not be in charge for any of that.

if there was no Nations League, we would be in a play off like Euro 2016.


If Staunton had the rules of Euro 2016 qualifiers he would have qualified us for a playoff. Your point is irrelevant. The manager manages the team in the current format of the competition, not the past format or the ideal format.

He failed. These playoffs are nothing to do with him. Given when they are projected to take place, he should be moved on now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2020 at 4:24pm
Some interesting points E2016, I think Mick has been very much needed post Martin O'Neil's tenure. The squad Mick inherited was becoming a mess and he needed to stabilise the team. Which he did.

I was one that was really pleased with his appointment and although results have been ok, must admit am disappointed with performances and our approach to some of the games, Georgia as an example.

Irish fans always seem to be fearful of change, be it with players in the team or manager in the dugout. Of course we dont want to be a team that just acts as a conveyor belt for managers and I dont think we are, but we need to make progress.

I think this is a good opportunity to let Kenny take the team forward, McCarthy is not going to improve the team at this point.

Let's start from current crop of promising young players and give them senior team experience, yes, they may very well struggle to start but they will get better, and that's the key point, molumby, connolly, oshea, knight etc etc can get much better as players, the players nearing their mid 30s will only get worse.

We need to look at a strategy for the next 3 or 4 years, not just the right now.
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