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Ray Houghton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2021 at 11:05pm
Further detail on effectiveness in preventing serious illness, also on an apparent beneficial effect on reducing transmission here:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote You Tell Me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2021 at 11:07pm
It's understandable that the UK media want to put a positive spin on AZ, considering that the government there are pumping it into the population as fast as they can get their hands on the stuff and the public are desperate for some good news.

However, here are the details of the actual clinical test results undertaken in respect of the vaccine. It's efficiacy is 60%. Better than no vaccine and therefore approved by the EU, but poor compared to the likes of Pfizer.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Englishborn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2021 at 11:13pm
Originally posted by Denis Irwin Denis Irwin wrote:

Originally posted by colemanY2K colemanY2K wrote:

Give it to the Brits so we can have a normal Euros 



Stage three

No earlier than 17 May:

  • Performances and large events can resume, with some limits. For indoor events they can be at half capacity or 1,000 people, and outdoors they can be at half capacity or 4,000 people - whichever is lower. For large venues (at least 40,000 capacity) up to 10,000 will be allowed to attend
  • International travel will resume no earlier than 17 May

Stage four

No earlier than 21 June:

  • All legal limits on social contact will be removed
  • No legal limits on the number of people who can attend weddings, funerals and other life events. From April, the government will run pilots for events such as large weddings, festivals and work conferences. This will help to determine how measures such as enhanced testing might allow large groups to attend without social distancing
  • Nightclubs and theatres will be allowed to reopen


There's a lot of if's in there. Vaccine Role out or not the Brits have f**ked up every re-opening so far.

f**k off with that word 'brits'. Some of u lot really enjoy that word. It makes me sick

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Ronnie Whelan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Englishborn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2021 at 11:21pm
I know this isn't important.  But I've never considered myself a 'Brit' or British. I never will.  I have always considered myself English and English only.  There ive got it off my chest. Many Scots feel Scottish only. Many Welsh consider themselves welsh only. U don't need to reply to this. It had to be said. End of. Nothing more to say. The end
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Ray Houghton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2021 at 11:27pm
Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

It's understandable that the UK media want to put a positive spin on AZ, considering that the government there are pumping it into the population as fast as they can get their hands on the stuff and the public are desperate for some good news.
And are eg Public Health Scotland putting a "positive spin" on their results?

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

However, here are the details of the actual clinical test results undertaken in respect of the vaccine. It's efficiacy is 60%. Better than no vaccine and therefore approved by the EU, but poor compared to the likes of Pfizer.

You do not appear to know the difference between Efficacy, derived from clinical trials in the laboratory; and Effectiveness, derived from live trials in the population.

You are citing the former, and with results nearly a month old at that (as per your link).

Whereas the latter are more reliable, especially when up-to-date (as per my link).

More here: https://www.qlik.com/blog/know-your-data-vaccines-whats-the-difference-between-effectiveness-and-efficacy


Edited by Territorial - 22 Feb 2021 at 11:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrendanD88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2021 at 11:30pm
Originally posted by Englishborn Englishborn wrote:

Originally posted by Denis Irwin Denis Irwin wrote:

Originally posted by colemanY2K colemanY2K wrote:

Give it to the Brits so we can have a normal Euros 



Stage three

No earlier than 17 May:

  • Performances and large events can resume, with some limits. For indoor events they can be at half capacity or 1,000 people, and outdoors they can be at half capacity or 4,000 people - whichever is lower. For large venues (at least 40,000 capacity) up to 10,000 will be allowed to attend
  • International travel will resume no earlier than 17 May

Stage four

No earlier than 21 June:

  • All legal limits on social contact will be removed
  • No legal limits on the number of people who can attend weddings, funerals and other life events. From April, the government will run pilots for events such as large weddings, festivals and work conferences. This will help to determine how measures such as enhanced testing might allow large groups to attend without social distancing
  • Nightclubs and theatres will be allowed to reopen


There's a lot of if's in there. Vaccine Role out or not the Brits have f**ked up every re-opening so far.

f**k off with that word 'brits'. Some of u lot really enjoy that word. It makes me sick


The Brits are at it again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dalymount79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2021 at 11:32pm
Originally posted by Zinedine Kilbane 110 Zinedine Kilbane 110 wrote:

Originally posted by BrendanD88 BrendanD88 wrote:

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

The vast majority of the UK population are being given AstraZenica, hence the faster rollout. It's only around 60% effective compared to the likes of Pfizer at 90%+.

They'll end up having to re-vaccinate the entire population.

Is that the same with the North? I thought Pfizer was the main one being used up here.

The hospitals all seem to be using the Pfizer ones as they have the facilities to store them.

If you are going to your local GP it’s more likely to be the AstraZenica.

The % split between Pfizer and AZ has never been released so nobody knows if the vast majority has gotten the Pfizer / AZ or if it’s evenly split. 
I do like the transparency of the vaccine type breakdown on Ireland’s covid app and data hub. Odd the UK don’t do the same or maybe they do or maybe we’re the outlier and most countries don’t provide this data.

If the multi country hosts thing doesn’t go ahead UK seems the most sensible choice. I don’t think too many countries would be putting their hands up - I know Israel did and the Turks might.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote You Tell Me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2021 at 11:43pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

It's understandable that the UK media want to put a positive spin on AZ, considering that the government there are pumping it into the population as fast as they can get their hands on the stuff and the public are desperate for some good news.
And are eg Public Health Scotland putting a "positive spin" on their results?

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

However, here are the details of the actual clinical test results undertaken in respect of the vaccine. It's efficiacy is 60%. Better than no vaccine and therefore approved by the EU, but poor compared to the likes of Pfizer.

You do not appear to know the difference between Efficacy, derived from clinical trials in the laboratory; and Effectiveness, derived from live trials in the population.

You are citing the former, and with results nearly a month old at that (as per your link).

Whereas the latter are more reliable, especially when up-to-date (as per my link).


I know exactly what efficacy means, that's why I stated the efficacy of the vaccine with a link to back it up. Your link relates to hospital admissions but doesn't seem to provide any details regarding overall infection. It's only telling one part of the story. Like I said, it's better than no vaccine at all, but there are huge question marks. And the UK government are playing with fire by widening the gap between the administering of the two doses contrary to scientific advice.

Best of luck to them, but they have bolloxed up everything else to do with Covid in the UK up to now, I'll believe Johnson's June date for a full reopening when it happens and not before then.
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Ray Houghton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2021 at 11:59pm
Originally posted by Dalymount79 Dalymount79 wrote:

I do like the transparency of the vaccine type breakdown on Ireland’s covid app and data hub. Odd the UK don’t do the same or maybe they do or maybe we’re the outlier and most countries don’t provide this data.

I don't know for certain why, but I suspect that the UK approach derives from two things.

The first was the decision that in order to give twice as many people a first jab, it was decided to have a 3 month interval betwen A-Z jabs, rather than a 3 week interval.

And the second was questions raised by EU critics (esp Macron) about the efficacy of the A-Z jab.

Meaning that the UK didn't want people to start insisting on one vaccine over the other, possibly even declining altogether.

Of course there is a risk that people would ask: "What are they hiding?", but experience has shown this not to be the case, since vaccine take-up has been much higher than initially feared..

This is probably because the single jab policy has produced good results, with it since being recommended by the World Health Organisation earlier this month:

And as for Macron, his credibility was severely undermined when his own Health Minister, Olivier Veran, flatly contadicted him over the A-Z jab, even lining up to receive the jab himself after Macron himself had already contracted the virus!

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Ray Houghton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 12:26am
Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

I know exactly what efficacy means, that's why I stated the efficacy of the vaccine with a link to back it up.
Then you will know that Effectiveness is more telling than Efficacy.

Besides which, your link was nearly a month old, mine was todays.

And the hospital admission rate is the single most important indicator when assessing any Covid vaccine, since it demonstrates (ahem) vaccine effectiveness in preventing death and serious illness. On which point, the Scottish results were described as "spectacular" [sic].

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Your link...           ... doesn't seem to provide any details regarding overall infection. It's only telling one part of the story.
If you look at the second link I provided it indicated that the latest data suggests that vaccines may also reduce transmission, which would be a huge bonus over the protection given. However, it is too early to be definitive.

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Like I said, it's better than no vaccine at all, but there are huge question marks.
"Huge"?

Such questions as have been raised are being answered by both testing and experience as the vaccination programme rolls out. And so far the answers are largely encouraging.

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

And the UK government are playing with fire by widening the gap between the administering of the two doses contrary to scientific advice.
I appreciate that my most recent post came after the above comment, but I will reiterate the relevant link:

(From 10 February 2021)

Oxford vaccine: Rest of the world should follow UK lead in leaving 12 week gap between doses, says WHO


The rest of the world should follow the UK’s lead and allow up to 12 weeks between doses of the Oxford/AstraZenica vaccine, the World Health Organisation (WHO) has said in a vindication of the Government’s last-minute change of strategy to its rollout programme.

Vaccine efficacy tended to be higher when the interval between doses was longer. This, together with the finding of higher antibody levels with increasing interdose interval, supports the conclusion that longer dose intervals within the 4–12 weeks range are associated with greater vaccine efficacy.”
(More here: https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/WHO-2019-nCoV-vaccines-SAGE_recommendation-AZD1222-2021.1 )


Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Best of luck to them, but they have bolloxed up everything else to do with Covid in the UK up to now, I'll believe Johnson's June date for a full reopening when it happens and not before then.
You may be right, you may be wrong.

But we have been discussing vaccine effectiveness (or if you prefer, efficacy Wink).



Edited by Territorial - 23 Feb 2021 at 12:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zinedine Kilbane 110 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 6:50am
Anyway, back on topic.

The UK are planning on re-opening everything mid June and unless another variant comes along that means the Pfizer/AZ vaccines are useless, I suspect it will open then. 

UEFA are making the decision in March but I assume the current hosts would have to agree to any decision made.
Does Dublin want to give up their games? What’s the general feeling? 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberto_Carlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 7:26am
General feeling from Uefa is they are desperate to keep the format as it is and will do everything they can to keep it that way. With it being summer, and still some months away, i'd say they have a decent chance of going ahead as planned, with a decent percentage of fans in grounds compared to the zero we are at right now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zinedine Kilbane 110 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 7:48am
Originally posted by Roberto_Carlow Roberto_Carlow wrote:

General feeling from Uefa is they are desperate to keep the format as it is and will do everything they can to keep it that way. With it being summer, and still some months away, i'd say they have a decent chance of going ahead as planned, with a decent percentage of fans in grounds compared to the zero we are at right now.

Yeah I can see it going ahead as planned and UEFA will leave it up to each country to decide on how many fans to allow into the stadiums.

The UK will obviously have Wembley full for the semifinal and final.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 8:47am
Originally posted by Zinedine Kilbane 110 Zinedine Kilbane 110 wrote:

Anyway, back on topic.

The UK are planning on re-opening everything mid June and unless another variant comes along that means the Pfizer/AZ vaccines are useless, I suspect it will open then. 

UEFA are making the decision in March but I assume the current hosts would have to agree to any decision made.
Does Dublin want to give up their games? What’s the general feeling? 
They won't change plan now, regardless of what happens. They have gone with the lunatic fringe of a lunatic party and it could end up going anyway. My fear is they want to use this an excuse to fully sell of the NHS and make a few more million for their mates, but that's probably for elsewhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AonSceal19 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 11:47am
Originally posted by Roberto_Carlow Roberto_Carlow wrote:

General feeling from Uefa is they are desperate to keep the format as it is and will do everything they can to keep it that way. With it being summer, and still some months away, i'd say they have a decent chance of going ahead as planned, with a decent percentage of fans in grounds compared to the zero we are at right now.

It would be an irresponsible decision from UEFA to continue with the current format. Making players and fans travel across Europe in the current climate. Revisit this format in the future when the world is back to normal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gspain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 11:53am
UEFA won't decide until April.  

I still find it hard to believe there will be 10K at England v Scotland on Friday June 18th and 90K at the Czech game the following Tuesday.

I imagine England (or with Scotland) would be the favourites now if moved.  However some countries may be reluctant to give up games.  

We are unfortunately quite a bit behind the UK in the vaccine rollout.  I'm not sure if it will be a case of cities giving games up or UEFA moving them. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberto_Carlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 12:00pm
Originally posted by AonSceal19 AonSceal19 wrote:

Originally posted by Roberto_Carlow Roberto_Carlow wrote:

General feeling from Uefa is they are desperate to keep the format as it is and will do everything they can to keep it that way. With it being summer, and still some months away, i'd say they have a decent chance of going ahead as planned, with a decent percentage of fans in grounds compared to the zero we are at right now.

It would be an irresponsible decision from UEFA to continue with the current format. Making players and fans travel across Europe in the current climate. Revisit this format in the future when the world is back to normal.

All fans descending on one country and then heading back doesn't really work either tbf. With the talk of new variants, the host nation may want to limit people entering the country. difficult to predict at this stage where the world will be come June


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zinedine Kilbane 110 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by gspain gspain wrote:

UEFA won't decide until April.  

I still find it hard to believe there will be 10K at England v Scotland on Friday June 18th and 90K at the Czech game the following Tuesday.

I imagine England (or with Scotland) would be the favourites now if moved.  However some countries may be reluctant to give up games.  

We are unfortunately quite a bit behind the UK in the vaccine rollout.  I'm not sure if it will be a case of cities giving games up or UEFA moving them. 

I doubt UEFA can take them away unless the host countries agree to it (there would be legal issues and compensation would have to be made) 

I think the majority of host countries won’t give up their games.



Edited by Zinedine Kilbane 110 - 23 Feb 2021 at 12:15pm

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