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    Posted: 18 Apr 2020 at 2:18pm
Everton are moving to a new stadium in a different location but do we ever see a time where Man Utd will move from Old Trafford or Liverpool move from Anfield to new state of the art stadiums 

Arsenal/Spurs and West Ham have done it 
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Originally posted by Healy52003 Healy52003 wrote:

Everton are moving to a new stadium in a different location but do we ever see a time where Man Utd will move from Old Trafford or Liverpool move from Anfield to new state of the art stadiums 

Arsenal/Spurs and West Ham have done it 
Will be an awful shame if they do and should heed the lessons of the clubs mentioned. West Ham fans hate the stadium they were given and only went along with it on the belief it would make them better. I work with a guy who has a season-ticket longer than I have been alive and he is thinking of chucking in his ST.He says the experience is awful and the football isn't getting any better, so what was the point?

Likewise, Arsenal have been gradually deteriorating since moving to  a dome more suited to hosting U2 than football.
Goodison is a wonderful ground that's full of history. I know they only plan to move to the docks, a couple of miles or so from Goodison, but Arsenal only moved a mile and their isn't much to the link they club that played at Highbury and the franchise at Ashburton Grove.
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I mentioned this on another thread. It’s a straight up choice of creating a Frankenstein’s Monster of a stadium line Anfield, Old Trafford, Stamford Bridge or St James’ Park (you could even consider the Aviva or Windsor Park in the same light), or move and have the freedom to do as you wish, but create a new stadium in industrial parks, with little infrastructure and several miles from the suburban areas and in places that are essentially nobody zones.

It’s a combination of factors, planning laws, engineering potentials, growth ambitions. But something has to give as you expand, so you either forfeit the aesthetic of the stadium, or forfeit the stadium itself.

As a STH at West Ham, PM’s assessment isn’t wide of the mark at all, and it runs even deeper now than just the footballing experience. Arsenal hasn’t been helped by the fact that their star has declined greatly since 2006 with the lines of Chelsea, United and City picking off their players. And that doesn’t count the numerous “yellow pack” stadiums up and down the country built in response to the creation of the Premier League. Nice stadiums, but almost identical.
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There's also the loss of connection to the community when clubs move from town and city centres out to an industrial estate in the middle of nowhere. A whole generation of fans can be lost. I remember talking to Dave Barry about when Cork City moved to Bishopstown and the team bus met a carload  of fans at a petrol station on the way back from a game in Dublin. On parting,  Barry said he would see them next week: 'we won't travel to Bishopstown, Dave! See you in a fortnight.' 
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Originally posted by Healy52003 Healy52003 wrote:

Everton are moving to a new stadium in a different location but do we ever see a time where Man Utd will move from Old Trafford or Liverpool move from Anfield to new state of the art stadiums 

Arsenal/Spurs and West Ham have done it 

If Everton are to be able to continue to survive, never mind compete, in the PL. they NEED a bigger capacity and 21st century facilities, to see then through the next 50-odd years.  And Goodison is simply not physically capable of being rebuilt to provide these, or anything like it.

So the choice is either move or slip out of the elite, possibly never to return. Which is why Everton fans - as attached to their traditional home as any - accept the need to move. As for the new location, they were up in arms when an out-of-town (out-of-Liverpool!) site in Kirby was identified, but the nearby Kings Dock seems to have found favour. (It's exactly the same for Brentford and their new move a mile down the road, only on a smaller scale.)

Meanwhile, Liverpool considered moving, but decided against in the end, which is why they spent so much redeveloping Anfield. Which means they're now there for the duration.

As for Man U, they looked at extending further over the railway line, but decided the cost per seat of the increased capacity wasn't cost-effective. Worse still, apparently the existing stadium needs money spending on it to renovate it, but the Glazers are reluctant to do so (no surprise there, then). That said, there's no point in moving to a new stadium for less than the present 75k capacity, and with OT having reasonably good corporate facilities etc as it is, the cost of knocking down OT and building anew, never mind the purchase cost of a new site, I'd say rules out any significant changes for the foreseeable future.

Arsenal screwed up in two respects. First, the design is "so last century". Even since they built the Emirates, new stadium design has come on in leaps and bounds. Second, with the cost of the build depriving the team of funds for new players, and Wenger passing his sell-by date, their move coincided with a decline on the pitch - never a good thing in getting the fans onside.

Meanwhile Spurs haven't actually moved and I've not heard any complaining about the new stadium (Levy and Mourinho, yes). In fact we're quietly rather proud of it, even if the old WHL atmosphere will take time to rebuild.

As for WHU, along with London's Council Taxpayers and the UK's taxpayers, their fans were right royally f**ked by their scumbag owners, whose sole reason for moving was money. The fans hate the stadium (and the owners) with a passion. Then again, they're West Ham fans, so f**k them too.
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Meanwhile, they're a long way from England (obviously!), but Guangzhou Evergreen could be providing a template for stadium design of the future. Providing you've got $1.7bn to spend, you'll get 100k seats and 168 VIP boxes for your money, all wrapped up in a pretty lotus flower:



And here are a couple of English projects which didn't come off:


Edited by Territorial - 18 Apr 2020 at 4:42pm
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The new stadiums in the UK kills clubs from a fan point of view. Many of these stadiums are built in the middle of nowhere. Take West Ham, they had a stadium near pubs, shops, bookies etc. Now they sell pizza slices and popcorn to tourists. 
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Healy52003 Healy52003 wrote:

Everton are moving to a new stadium in a different location but do we ever see a time where Man Utd will move from Old Trafford or Liverpool move from Anfield to new state of the art stadiums 

Arsenal/Spurs and West Ham have done it 

If Everton are to be able to continue to survive, never mind compete, in the PL. they NEED a bigger capacity and 21st century facilities, to see then through the next 50-odd years.  And Goodison is simply not physically capable of being rebuilt to provide these, or anything like it.

So the choice is either move or slip out of the elite, possibly never to return. Which is why Everton fans - as attached to their traditional home as any - accept the need to move. As for the new location, they were up in arms when an out-of-town (out-of-Liverpool!) site in Kirby was identified, but the nearby Kings Dock seems to have found favour. (It's exactly the same for Brentford and their new move a mile down the road, only on a smaller scale.)

Meanwhile, Liverpool considered moving, but decided against in the end, which is why they spent so much redeveloping Anfield. Which means they're now there for the duration.

As for Man U, they looked at extending further over the railway line, but decided the cost per seat of the increased capacity wasn't cost-effective. Worse still, apparently the existing stadium needs money spending on it to renovate it, but the Glazers are reluctant to do so (no surprise there, then). That said, there's no point in moving to a new stadium for less than the present 75k capacity, and with OT having reasonably good corporate facilities etc as it is, the cost of knocking down OT and building anew, never mind the purchase cost of a new site, I'd say rules out any significant changes for the foreseeable future.

Arsenal screwed up in two respects. First, the design is "so last century". Even since they built the Emirates, new stadium design has come on in leaps and bounds. Second, with the cost of the build depriving the team of funds for new players, and Wenger passing his sell-by date, their move coincided with a decline on the pitch - never a good thing in getting the fans onside.

Meanwhile Spurs haven't actually moved and I've not heard any complaining about the new stadium (Levy and Mourinho, yes). In fact we're quietly rather proud of it, even if the old WHL atmosphere will take time to rebuild.

As for WHU, along with London's Council Taxpayers and the UK's taxpayers, their fans were right royally f**ked by their scumbag owners, whose sole reason for moving was money. The fans hate the stadium (and the owners) with a passion. Then again, they're West Ham fans, so f**k them too.

If Utd were ever to move, I’d imagine there’s enough room at old Trafford to build a new one then demolish the existing for car parking. Can’t ever see it happening though. 

YOUR 3 IN A ROW LEAGUE CHAMPIONS
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Originally posted by Jackal Jackal wrote:

The new stadiums in the UK kills clubs from a fan point of view. Many of these stadiums are built in the middle of nowhere. Take West Ham, they had a stadium near pubs, shops, bookies etc. Now they sell pizza slices and popcorn to tourists. 


Alf Garnett must be turning in his grave... soulless places modern stadia across the water.
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Ive worked down the docks on a new road going that's going to site of Everton's never stadium. I know the docklands are being regenerated but that's a cold, miserable and soulless place for a new stadium.
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

If Everton are to be able to continue to survive, never mind compete, in the PL. they NEED a bigger capacity and 21st century facilities, to see then through the next 50-odd years.  And Goodison is simply not physically capable of being rebuilt to provide these, or anything like it.

So the choice is either move or slip out of the elite, possibly never to return. Which is why Everton fans - as attached to their traditional home as any - accept the need to move. As for the new location, they were up in arms when an out-of-town (out-of-Liverpool!) site in Kirby was identified, but the nearby Kings Dock seems to have found favour. (It's exactly the same for Brentford and their new move a mile down the road, only on a smaller scale.)

Meanwhile, Liverpool considered moving, but decided against in the end, which is why they spent so much redeveloping Anfield. Which means they're now there for the duration.

As for Man U, they looked at extending further over the railway line, but decided the cost per seat of the increased capacity wasn't cost-effective. Worse still, apparently the existing stadium needs money spending on it to renovate it, but the Glazers are reluctant to do so (no surprise there, then). That said, there's no point in moving to a new stadium for less than the present 75k capacity, and with OT having reasonably good corporate facilities etc as it is, the cost of knocking down OT and building anew, never mind the purchase cost of a new site, I'd say rules out any significant changes for the foreseeable future.

Arsenal screwed up in two respects. First, the design is "so last century". Even since they built the Emirates, new stadium design has come on in leaps and bounds. Second, with the cost of the build depriving the team of funds for new players, and Wenger passing his sell-by date, their move coincided with a decline on the pitch - never a good thing in getting the fans onside.

Meanwhile Spurs haven't actually moved and I've not heard any complaining about the new stadium (Levy and Mourinho, yes). In fact we're quietly rather proud of it, even if the old WHL atmosphere will take time to rebuild.

As for WHU, along with London's Council Taxpayers and the UK's taxpayers, their fans were right royally f**ked by their scumbag owners, whose sole reason for moving was money. The fans hate the stadium (and the owners) with a passion. Then again, they're West Ham fans, so f**k them too.
Having watched the West Ham experience, the "Everton need to move to compete" argument is horsesh*t. There's so much more money got from TV these days, ticketing means nothing. West Ham's extra tickets were sold for peanuts. LAst season at Upton part I was paying 85 pound a game. It's about 60 now at OS. And for what? Has our budget increased at all? to "compete" (I'm guessing you mean top 6 by that), you need a billionaire owner, not fancy corporate boxes.
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Originally posted by PaddyDaCulchie PaddyDaCulchie wrote:

Ive worked down the docks on a new road going that's going to site of Everton's never stadium. I know the docklands are being regenerated but that's a cold, miserable and soulless place for a new stadium.

It’ll match their playing style so.


Edited by JUICEBOMB - 18 Apr 2020 at 11:59pm
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Originally posted by JUICEBOMB JUICEBOMB wrote:

Originally posted by PaddyDaCulchie PaddyDaCulchie wrote:

Ive worked down the docks on a new road going that's going to site of Everton's never stadium. I know the docklands are being regenerated but that's a cold, miserable and soulless place for a new stadium.

It’ll match their playing style so.

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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Meanwhile, they're a long way from England (obviously!), but Guangzhou Evergreen could be providing a template for stadium design of the future. Providing you've got $1.7bn to spend, you'll get 100k seats and 168 VIP boxes for your money, all wrapped up in a pretty lotus flower:



And here are a couple of English projects which didn't come off:

Not sure is that a work of art or hideous
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Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Having watched the West Ham experience, the "Everton need to move to compete" argument is horsesh*t. There's so much more money got from TV these days, ticketing means nothing.

"Horsesh*t" is it?

Here are the figures from the 2017/18 season for the Big Six clubs plus Everton, first overall revenue, then TV revenue, then the percentage of overall revenue determined by TV money:

1. Man Utd   £594m   £150m   25.3%
2. M. City     £506m   £149m   29.4%
3. Liverpool  £458m   £146m   31.9%
4. Chelsea    £451m   £142m   31.5%
5. Arsenal     £392m   £142m   36.2%
6. Spurs       £382m   £144m   37.7%
7. Everton    £190m   £128m   51.8%

In other words, even if they earned exactly the same from TV as all the other clubs, they'd still be miles behind the rest.

Which means they have to increase their non-TV revenue if they're to catch up. And the most obvious way to do that as soon as possible is a bigger, modern stadium.

Which is precisely why Man U and L'pool have spent hundreds of millions expanding OT and Anfield, Man City and Arsenal have moved, Spurs have spent a billion quid rebuilding WHL, and Chelsea are desperate to replace Stamford Bridge, either with a rebuild or a move. The effect of which has been to further the gap between them and the rest, making TV revenues less and less relevant. (Though

Moreover, the more recent deal for overseas TV will see more going to the Big Six, at the expense of the rest of the PL, incl Everton.

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

West Ham's extra tickets were sold for peanuts. LAst season at Upton part I was paying 85 pound a game. It's about 60 now at OS. And for what? Has our budget increased at all? to "compete" (I'm guessing you mean top 6 by that), you need a billionaire owner, not fancy corporate boxes.

Here are WHU's 2017/18 figures:
9. WHU        £178m   £116m   £65.2%

Beyond that, they serve no value as a comparitor, for two basic reasons.

First, they simply don't have the support to charge regular London PL ticket prices at a crap stadium like that. In fact, they've been almost giving them away for some games i.e. the stadium is too big, even were it suitable for football. Which explains why eg Everton, who traditionally have a much bigger support than WHU, are still only going for 53k capacity to start with. By contrast, Spurs whose support is bigger again these days, are pretty much filling their 61k capacity stadium at x3(?) the prices WHU can command.

Second, the tramps who own WHU aren't concerned about revenue, so much as profit. And the outrageous deal they got for the Olympic stadium means that they're trousering far more money from the club than they were at the Boleyn, regardless of how the team is performing, or how much they can charge at the gate.

Meanwhile, having a billionaire owner isn't going to save Everton (or any other club) these days. For since Man City and Chelsea's owners plunged hundreds of millions into their clubs in the early days, the PL has since "pulled up the drawbridge behind them", with the introduction of FFP.
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Originally posted by Healy52003 Healy52003 wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Meanwhile, they're a long way from England (obviously!), but Guangzhou Evergreen could be providing a template for stadium design of the future. Providing you've got $1.7bn to spend, you'll get 100k seats and 168 VIP boxes for your money, all wrapped up in a pretty lotus flower:



And here are a couple of English projects which didn't come off:

Not sure is that a work of art or hideous

A hideous work of art?
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Having watched the West Ham experience, the "Everton need to move to compete" argument is horsesh*t. There's so much more money got from TV these days, ticketing means nothing.

"Horsesh*t" is it?

Here are the figures from the 2017/18 season for the Big Six clubs plus Everton, first overall revenue, then TV revenue, then the percentage of overall revenue determined by TV money:

1. Man Utd   £594m   £150m   25.3%
2. M. City     £506m   £149m   29.4%
3. Liverpool  £458m   £146m   31.9%
4. Chelsea    £451m   £142m   31.5%
5. Arsenal     £392m   £142m   36.2%
6. Spurs       £382m   £144m   37.7%
7. Everton    £190m   £128m   51.8%

In other words, even if they earned exactly the same from TV as all the other clubs, they'd still be miles behind the rest.

Which means they have to increase their non-TV revenue if they're to catch up. And the most obvious way to do that as soon as possible is a bigger, modern stadium.

Which is precisely why Man U and L'pool have spent hundreds of millions expanding OT and Anfield, Man City and Arsenal have moved, Spurs have spent a billion quid rebuilding WHL, and Chelsea are desperate to replace Stamford Bridge, either with a rebuild or a move. The effect of which has been to further the gap between them and the rest, making TV revenues less and less relevant. (Though

Moreover, the more recent deal for overseas TV will see more going to the Big Six, at the expense of the rest of the PL, incl Everton.

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

West Ham's extra tickets were sold for peanuts. LAst season at Upton part I was paying 85 pound a game. It's about 60 now at OS. And for what? Has our budget increased at all? to "compete" (I'm guessing you mean top 6 by that), you need a billionaire owner, not fancy corporate boxes.

Here are WHU's 2017/18 figures:
9. WHU        £178m   £116m   £65.2%

Beyond that, they serve no value as a comparitor, for two basic reasons.

First, they simply don't have the support to charge regular London PL ticket prices at a crap stadium like that. In fact, they've been almost giving them away for some games i.e. the stadium is too big, even were it suitable for football. Which explains why eg Everton, who traditionally have a much bigger support than WHU, are still only going for 53k capacity to start with. By contrast, Spurs whose support is bigger again these days, are pretty much filling their 61k capacity stadium at x3(?) the prices WHU can command.

Second, the tramps who own WHU aren't concerned about revenue, so much as profit. And the outrageous deal they got for the Olympic stadium means that they're trousering far more money from the club than they were at the Boleyn, regardless of how the team is performing, or how much they can charge at the gate.

Meanwhile, having a billionaire owner isn't going to save Everton (or any other club) these days. For since Man City and Chelsea's owners plunged hundreds of millions into their clubs in the early days, the PL has since "pulled up the drawbridge behind them", with the introduction of FFP.
Having nicer seats isn't gonna help Everton break into Champions League, they got 26m in ticket sales last year, is another 15-20,000 seats adding another maybe 10m tickets, gnna help them compete? So not instead of being 190m pounds behind Spurs on your table they're only 175m pounds back?

I referenced WH as they were also sold the "we have a bigger stadium, we get better players" argument. We got a sh*t stadium and Sebastian Haller. 

And do you really think that working class Liverpool is going to be able to support higehr prices than London?
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Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Having nicer seats isn't gonna help Everton break into Champions League, they got 26m in ticket sales last year, is another 15-20,000 seats adding another maybe 10m tickets, gnna help them compete? So not instead of being 190m pounds behind Spurs on your table they're only 175m pounds back?

I referenced WH as they were also sold the "we have a bigger stadium, we get better players" argument. We got a sh*t stadium and Sebastian Haller. 

And do you really think that working class Liverpool is going to be able to support higehr prices than London?

The point is that when you're already miles behind your competitors, it's even MORE important to try to narrow the gap, not less, even if you can't close it. And this is esp so when the gap is widening year-by-year.

And it's not just the income from another 10m ticket sales we're talking about. Enhanced facilities bring in premium punters, plus sponsors and advertisers. They will also be able to sell the naming rights, which they could never do for Goodison. And if you have more money to sign better players, they're far more likely to be attracted to a club with a new ground i.e. one which is "going places".

On top of which, the "working class Liverpool" argument is a thing of the past. For the working class generally is declining as a percentage of the UK population, on Merseyside as well as everywhere else, and if clubs are going to compete, they cannot ignore the increasing middle-class audience (and their money). I mean, Liverpool FC have proven that a successful Merseyside club can attract people from all over, so why not Everton? Remember, when the PL was first suggested, they were one of "The Big Five", alongside L'pool, Man U, Arsenal and Spurs. All the others have prospered in either new or rebuilt stadia, while Everton have floundered in an increaasingly decrepit Goodison.

Now I understand why traditionalists (I'm one myself) may regret a lot of what is lost when clubs move from their old home. But ask yourself this, would these "working class Evertonians" be happy if they were still eg living in a Council two-up two-down with an outside toilet? Happy to go to Blackpool and stay in  a gloomy boarding house for their two week holiday each year? Or drink in some horrible spit-and-sawdust backstreet boozer, while the women stayed at home with the five kids? (OK, maybe scrap that last one!)

Fact is, people have moved on when it comes to expectations and standards and that includes football fans. And quite right too, imo.
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