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Kevin Kilbane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fruice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Banjaxed Banjaxed wrote:

Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

Ya but the guys we are currently speaking about as technically good are Crowley who is at a struggling Championship side and Byrne who is playing in the LOI after failing the make it abroad.
There is a reason they are where the are and until they can prove they are better than where they are at they won’t start for us it’s as simple as that.


Who on the 40 team panel is technically more gifted and Crowley or Byrne?
The argument isn’t whether they are or aren’t the best technical players, it is about whether that technique would improve the team as a whole. Many remain sceptical of that.
That’s exactly where I’m coming from and to this point in time none of there club managers at the bigger clubs have been convinced by technical abilities either 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:


Struggling??
Yes struggling their ambition is to be in the premier league they are closer to league one than the premiership.
Got a points deduction last season and sold their best player this summer.
That’s struggling to me.

Not predicting they'll go down this season (though it wouldn't surprise me at all), but their present on-field prospects cannot be divorced from their financial situation, which is calamitous (understatement):
https://footballeconomyv2.blogspot.com/2019/01/huge-wage-bills-at-birmingham-city.html

In order to escape further FFP punishment etc, they have been forced to slash their bills this season, esp wage bills.

Which explains why they've sold their main (only?) goalscorer Adams to Soton, for instance, and their most creative player, Jota, to their most hated rivals Villa.

Which must also at least partly explain why they signed Crowley i.e. he was cheap, exactly as you might expect from someone with his CV.

Which is not to say he hasn't been unfairly overlooked to date, or isn't capable of being a late developer.

But as someone who's actually seen him play recently, when he was decent enough I suppose, I can't believe a team like ROI should be picking him in important games until he's had at least one consistent 35-game season at St. Andrews, if not two.

Certainly not while eg Alan Judge is fit and available, Lge One or no.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fruice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:


Struggling??
Yes struggling their ambition is to be in the premier league they are closer to league one than the premiership.
Got a points deduction last season and sold their best player this summer.
That’s struggling to me.

Not predicting they'll go down this season (though it wouldn't surprise me at all), but their present on-field prospects cannot be divorced from their financial situation, which is calamitous (understatement):

In order to escape further FFP punishment etc, they have been forced to slash their bills this season, esp wage bills.

Which explains why they've sold their main (only?) goalscorer Adams to Soton, for instance, and their most creative player, Jota, to their most hated rivals Villa.

Which must also at least partly explain why they signed Crowley i.e. he was cheap, exactly as you might expect from someone with his CV.

Which is not to say he hasn't been unfairly overlooked to date, or isn't capable of being a late developer.

But as someone who's actually seen him play recently, when he was decent enough I suppose, I can't believe a team like ROI should be picking him in important games until he's had at least one consistent 35-game season at St. Andrews, if not two.

Certainly not while eg Alan Judge is fit and available, Lge One or no.



So Terri would you say struggling???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kearney304 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Originally posted by Banjaxed Banjaxed wrote:

Nearly every squad that Hoolahan was a part of he would have been considered the most technically gifted, and also the one with the best "footballing brains"... yet he wasn't a guaranteed starter.

So drawing any conclusions on Crowley/Byrne's ability based on who they play for, past failings, when they get dropped, etc, just seems redundant.

It will always come down to the manager and their personal preference based on how they want to play, but at the end of the day, not playing your most technically gifted player doesn't change the fact that they are STILL your most technically gifted player. 

Players like Byrne, hoolahan, crowley and kilkenny need to play in teams where possession of the football is required because that's where they excel. 

If you only have the ball for 30-35% of the game these players get labelled defensive liabilities. 

And if you never start them then you have no chance of keeping possession for more than 30% of the time... It astounds me how some people are blind to that link; we play guys who we know can't dominate possession, and then use that as confirmatory evidence for not starting guys who conceivably can keep possession. Vicious cycle.
Don't usually agree with you but this is so fecking true 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:


Struggling??
Yes struggling their ambition is to be in the premier league they are closer to league one than the premiership.
Got a points deduction last season and sold their best player this summer.
That’s struggling to me.

Not predicting they'll go down this season (though it wouldn't surprise me at all), but their present on-field prospects cannot be divorced from their financial situation, which is calamitous (understatement):

In order to escape further FFP punishment etc, they have been forced to slash their bills this season, esp wage bills.

Which explains why they've sold their main (only?) goalscorer Adams to Soton, for instance, and their most creative player, Jota, to their most hated rivals Villa.

Which must also at least partly explain why they signed Crowley i.e. he was cheap, exactly as you might expect from someone with his CV.

Which is not to say he hasn't been unfairly overlooked to date, or isn't capable of being a late developer.

But as someone who's actually seen him play recently, when he was decent enough I suppose, I can't believe a team like ROI should be picking him in important games until he's had at least one consistent 35-game season at St. Andrews, if not two.

Certainly not while eg Alan Judge is fit and available, Lge One or no.



So Terri would you say struggling???
LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

So Terri would you say struggling???

I thought that was implicit.

Maybe you should let us know when you need someone to be explicit. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fruice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 5:06pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

So Terri would you say struggling???

I thought that was implicit.

Maybe you should let us know when you need someone to be explicit. Wink
Arra there is nothing like driving it home.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deise316 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 11:59pm
Originally posted by kearney304 kearney304 wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Originally posted by Banjaxed Banjaxed wrote:

Nearly every squad that Hoolahan was a part of he would have been considered the most technically gifted, and also the one with the best "footballing brains"... yet he wasn't a guaranteed starter.

So drawing any conclusions on Crowley/Byrne's ability based on who they play for, past failings, when they get dropped, etc, just seems redundant.

It will always come down to the manager and their personal preference based on how they want to play, but at the end of the day, not playing your most technically gifted player doesn't change the fact that they are STILL your most technically gifted player. 

Players like Byrne, hoolahan, crowley and kilkenny need to play in teams where possession of the football is required because that's where they excel. 

If you only have the ball for 30-35% of the game these players get labelled defensive liabilities. 

And if you never start them then you have no chance of keeping possession for more than 30% of the time... It astounds me how some people are blind to that link; we play guys who we know can't dominate possession, and then use that as confirmatory evidence for not starting guys who conceivably can keep possession. Vicious cycle.
Don't usually agree with you but this is so fecking true 


O'Shea is correct on that, but this is what I'm getting at the whole time- for a Crowley, or Byrne, or Wes type to actually make a difference, our whole philosophy has to change. We need CB's who can bring the ball out of defence and be able to hit an odd long pass or draw an opposition forward out of position to make an angle for a pass that might actually take an opposition player out of play- we currently have none of those. 

We need other the other midfielders to be able to get the ball with their back to the opposition goal, turn and pass forward or run forward with the ball to draw/commit lads into tackles- we don't have those either, we have Hendrick & Whelan. 

We need wingers who, when they get the ball, don't just tip it ahead of themselves and head for the corner in a race with the fullback, hoping to get a corner off a deflection from an attempt at a cross. We have McClean, who mostly does exactly those things, probably pragmatically realising a corner is our best chance of scoring. 

If the wingers can't beat their men with pace or skill, we need the CM's to support them and try play 1-2's/pass through the opposition midfield & defence and be able to switch play from one side to the other rapidly to stretch defences. We have Hendrick & Whelan etc. 

We need forwards to make runs and show for the ball. McGoldrick does this reasonably well, but on the other aspect of his job, hasn't scored a goal for us yet. The fact our CM's are generally withdrawn deep means he often has to drop back a long way from the goal to even take part in play, never mind getting close to the goal. 

Putting Crowley, or Byrne, or whoever is designated ''the next Wes'' is into the team, isn't in itself going to make a huge difference when Duffy reverts to type under pressure and hits a long diagonal over that players head in the vague direction of whoever is standing out on the right wing. 

If we are ever going to evolve into a possession based team, we need more than one Crowley or Bryne or whoever lads that are comfortable with the ball at their feet to be playing as well. That isn't going to happen under this manager, same as it never happened under the last one or the last one before that. 

It did happen under Mick the first time, but the likes of Royston, Kinsella, Holland, Duff, McAteer, Finnan, Robbie, even Breen & Stan, were far better with the ball at their feet than the crew we have now. Mick being a pragmatist sees this so has gone the pragmatic route with this squad. 

In an ideal world, we would have at least one ball playing CB, 2 ball playing CMs, wingers who could make a choice between retaining possession or taking on their man (rather than doing the same thing repetitively), and by retaining possession, I don't mean running up the wing, stopping, and passing it backwards to the fullback standing behind (who inevitably launches it long), I mean passing infield, continuing the run/switching infield etc. At the moment, we don't have those players. The U21 squad looks very promising in this regard, but at senior level, we're going to be seeing more of Hendrick, Whelan and someone else who does the basics in midfield ahead of a Crowley or Byrne. 

I dunno is it that some don't see this (surely most do see it) or do they genuinely think one player can & will make the difference to the entire style of play. If that player was an in-his-prime Roy Keane or Liam Brady, ya, maybe they would. But I don't see a championship midfielder or LOI man being that player. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2019 at 12:18am
Originally posted by deise316 deise316 wrote:

Originally posted by kearney304 kearney304 wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Originally posted by Banjaxed Banjaxed wrote:

Nearly every squad that Hoolahan was a part of he would have been considered the most technically gifted, and also the one with the best "footballing brains"... yet he wasn't a guaranteed starter.

So drawing any conclusions on Crowley/Byrne's ability based on who they play for, past failings, when they get dropped, etc, just seems redundant.

It will always come down to the manager and their personal preference based on how they want to play, but at the end of the day, not playing your most technically gifted player doesn't change the fact that they are STILL your most technically gifted player. 

Players like Byrne, hoolahan, crowley and kilkenny need to play in teams where possession of the football is required because that's where they excel. 

If you only have the ball for 30-35% of the game these players get labelled defensive liabilities. 

And if you never start them then you have no chance of keeping possession for more than 30% of the time... It astounds me how some people are blind to that link; we play guys who we know can't dominate possession, and then use that as confirmatory evidence for not starting guys who conceivably can keep possession. Vicious cycle.
Don't usually agree with you but this is so fecking true 


O'Shea is correct on that, but this is what I'm getting at the whole time- for a Crowley, or Byrne, or Wes type to actually make a difference, our whole philosophy has to change. We need CB's who can bring the ball out of defence and be able to hit an odd long pass or draw an opposition forward out of position to make an angle for a pass that might actually take an opposition player out of play- we currently have none of those. 

We need other the other midfielders to be able to get the ball with their back to the opposition goal, turn and pass forward or run forward with the ball to draw/commit lads into tackles- we don't have those either, we have Hendrick & Whelan. 

We need wingers who, when they get the ball, don't just tip it ahead of themselves and head for the corner in a race with the fullback, hoping to get a corner off a deflection from an attempt at a cross. We have McClean, who mostly does exactly those things, probably pragmatically realising a corner is our best chance of scoring. 

If the wingers can't beat their men with pace or skill, we need the CM's to support them and try play 1-2's/pass through the opposition midfield & defence and be able to switch play from one side to the other rapidly to stretch defences. We have Hendrick & Whelan etc. 

We need forwards to make runs and show for the ball. McGoldrick does this reasonably well, but on the other aspect of his job, hasn't scored a goal for us yet. The fact our CM's are generally withdrawn deep means he often has to drop back a long way from the goal to even take part in play, never mind getting close to the goal. 

Putting Crowley, or Byrne, or whoever is designated ''the next Wes'' is into the team, isn't in itself going to make a huge difference when Duffy reverts to type under pressure and hits a long diagonal over that players head in the vague direction of whoever is standing out on the right wing. 

If we are ever going to evolve into a possession based team, we need more than one Crowley or Bryne or whoever lads that are comfortable with the ball at their feet to be playing as well. That isn't going to happen under this manager, same as it never happened under the last one or the last one before that. 

It did happen under Mick the first time, but the likes of Royston, Kinsella, Holland, Duff, McAteer, Finnan, Robbie, even Breen & Stan, were far better with the ball at their feet than the crew we have now. Mick being a pragmatist sees this so has gone the pragmatic route with this squad. 

In an ideal world, we would have at least one ball playing CB, 2 ball playing CMs, wingers who could make a choice between retaining possession or taking on their man (rather than doing the same thing repetitively), and by retaining possession, I don't mean running up the wing, stopping, and passing it backwards to the fullback standing behind (who inevitably launches it long), I mean passing infield, continuing the run/switching infield etc. At the moment, we don't have those players. The U21 squad looks very promising in this regard, but at senior level, we're going to be seeing more of Hendrick, Whelan and someone else who does the basics in midfield ahead of a Crowley or Byrne. 

I dunno is it that some don't see this (surely most do see it) or do they genuinely think one player can & will make the difference to the entire style of play. If that player was an in-his-prime Roy Keane or Liam Brady, ya, maybe they would. But I don't see a championship midfielder or LOI man being that player. 





I agree with all of this, I would only add that when we play teams like Georgia at our home ground and the ireland team, without exaggertion, struggle badly to string 3 passes together the whole game, when the same players can move the ball with their club team, there has to be something wrong with how the team is set up and drilled.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deise316 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2019 at 12:44am
The top coaches today, Pep, Klopp, Poch etc - their calling card is that they improve players. Pochettino  improved his even without huge aid from the transfer market to the extent that they got to the CL final and finished in the top 3. A tier below them, the likes of Rodgers, Eddie Howe, Hassenhutil and Nuno attempt to do much the same thing on lesser resources with players of a little less ability (generally, as some of those teams have outstanding individuals too)

Then you have the well organised, difficult to beat lads like Hodgson & Dyche. Our managers have always been cut from this cloth rather than the other type. The top coaches success and style of play has affected everyone from chairmen to fans, most now want to play some kind of football that imitates the top teams, and chairmen are acting accordingly, going out actively seeking fellas who they think might be able to do this that were previously unheard of in the UK- Hassenhutil, Farke, or simply getting in a manager who changes the conservative style of play, like Brighton have done replacing Hughton with Potter. 

Irish fans are no different, but when it comes to selecting managers, we are top of the lack of imagination league, and have been for a long time. Delaney appointing Kenny could turn out to be an accidental stroke of genius, much the same as appointing Charlton was accidental. But accidental it is, there was certainly no thoughts coming down from the FAI about progressive football, if Kenny's appointment happens & works, its merely a coincidence. 

If it doesn't work, there will be a clamour on here to install Chris Hughton, another manager in the mould of Dyche, Roy H, Mick, MON who sets out with the aim of firstly not losing rather than winning. Sometimes ya get what ya deserve......



 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mully_85 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2019 at 5:04am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tetsujin1979 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2019 at 8:27am
Think you're missing one important fact there, all of these managers have time to work with their players to improve them. International managers have, at most, a week. That's nowhere near enough time to improve a player. 

Edited by tetsujin1979 - 29 Aug 2019 at 8:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BippityBoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2019 at 8:34am

Disagree Deise, Ireland obviously can't play any type of possession based dfootball against any team, seeing as we've not done so in the last 10 years /s

Seriously though, I honestly don't get this attitude. I'm not one to bash the management all the time like some people on here, but surely the reason we play hoofball against all teams we play is down to the management style. As some people have said, these lads are professionals playing in the top 2 tiers of English football.

Time will only tell if Kenny will be able to change that, but I'm super excited to see how he progresses the team and brings some of the exciting young prospects into the fold and hopefully instill some sort of progressive philosophy. I really just hope he is given sufficient time.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2019 at 8:57am
Originally posted by tetsujin1979 tetsujin1979 wrote:

Think you're missing one important fact there, all of these managers have time to work with their players to improve them. International managers have, at most, a week. That's nowhere near enough time to improve a player. 

Improving the players is one thing but making them worse is another. We have all watched games with so called lesser opposition in which ireland were disorganised and struggled to move the ball. Also remember than other nations have the same amount of time with their players.

Sometimes it looked like there was no direction for the players at all 

That being said I think mccarthy is a vast improvement on what we've had for the last 10 years 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kearney304 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2019 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by CarlowMan1888 CarlowMan1888 wrote:

Typical YBIG looking for a cause celebre now that Hoolahan is gone. Only this time it's worse. Hoolahan was playing regularly. Crowley was playing for a mediocre team in a mediocre league. Then moves to Birmingham and isn't even starting. What's worse is he is not fully eligible yet. But of course YBIG need someone to moan about now that Andy Reid, Stephen Ireland and Wes Hoolahan are firmly out of the picture.


Shame on you YBIG
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deise316 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2019 at 12:17am
Originally posted by tetsujin1979 tetsujin1979 wrote:

Think you're missing one important fact there, all of these managers have time to work with their players to improve them. International managers have, at most, a week. That's nowhere near enough time to improve a player. 

I'd agree it isn't enough time, but at the same time, I don't think we've ever had a manager who tried it. They tend to look at what they have, assess it and arrive at the conclusion ''this is the way we'll play''. Oddly enough, one of the managers (JC) who had a choice of some of our finest footballers ever, assessed what he had, then deliberately set out to play in a more ''non-footballing'' direct manner after coming to the conclusion that most other teams weren't playing like that, wouldn't be able to deal with it, and it could get him results. 

He was right with that theory as well, and it did get results. Egil Olsen did similar with Norway for a few years too. All that was around 25-30 years ago though. The thing there is that Jack (and Egil) reverting to a basic game was actually somewhat innovative in itself at the time, most other teams were trying to play football. 

Mick did opt for a better style the first time around, but it took him a while to get there too, there was much (necessary) rebuilding & experimentation across the 2 campaigns we didn't qualify for under him. No manager today would get that time. The style we have been playing since he left in 2002 has been player driven and not manager driven, and when I say player driven, it is really the manager's assessment of players abilities. Stan, Trap & MON regularly commented they ''didn't have the players'', Kerr didn't say things like that in public, but the playing style was similarly conservative, as were his tactical decisions (Kavanagh for Robbie Keane V Israel when we were 2-0 up and cruising will always haunt me)

I mentioned Daniel Farke earlier on, and like probably everyone else, I never heard of him before he went to Norwich. The England U21 squad was named today and has 3 of his players in it, all debutants. If he took the ''I don't have the players'' approach, would those 3 lads have got games for Norwich or been selected for England U21 ? Would Rodgers have his current career if he took the ''I don't have the players'' approach at Swansea ?? 

I'd be the very first to agree our players have limitations, some of them fairly large ones, but the game has evolved to the point where coaches who bring those credentials are the ones being sought after. Generally not sought after by us though.  If the manager basically makes little difference to the way we play, and you could certainly argue the last few haven't, bar generally being defensively organised, why don't we give Noel King the job ? We did actually give him an important job for most of a decade, and it wasn't exactly a success. 

I suppose to sum all that up, we have a manager who looks at players, assesses their limitations and decides to play in a certain way. I think a more modern manager such as those mentioned in above post, would firstly identify a style of play, then identify the players he needs to fit that and work from there. That isn't as simple as deciding we are going to play like Man City either, we certainly don't have the players to do that, but when you look at yer attacking style Norwich and Sheff U (complete with overlapping centre backs) doing innovative things with players of roughly similar ability to ours (we even share 4 of them with Sheff U), I don't see why Ireland shouldn't attempt to come up with some innovation of our own, like Jack once did. 

In reality, what was originally an innovation by Jack got mistaken for a template by most of his successors, and we haven't really evolved from it in 3 decades, save for an intermission around 2002. Hopefully Kenny might change that with the aid of some exciting prospects, but if it doesn't change, we will likely never see another WC (unless they expand it....which they probably will) and as for the Euros, we will probably make 1 in 3 and not trouble anything further than the QFs unless we get lucky or play for pens. 





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Dropped to the bench again
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2019 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by cildaratown cildaratown wrote:

Dropped to the bench again

Seems like we have a lot of bench warmers today -

Southampton- Shane long on the bench

Sheffield Utd - Egan, Stevens and Robinson start, McGoldrick on the bench

Palace - McCarthy on the bench

Brighton - Duffy and Connolly on the bench

Villa - hourihane on the bench

Newcastle - Clarke on the bench

Bristol - O’Dowda on the bench

Birmingham - Crowley on the bench 

Stoke - mcclean starts, Hogan on the bench

Derby - keogh and knight start 

Milwall - molumby and Williams on the bench

Preston - Browne starts,

Charlton. - Cullen starts 

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