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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2018 at 2:05pm
I agree with most of that, but the Checkatrade is being used to 'normalise' reserve teams playing league clubs. Look at any articles about it so see how it is being spun by those who govern the game. The more successful the Checkatrade is in its current format, the stronger the argument for Arsenal reserves in the Conference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2018 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Go through the Checktrade lineups,see how many young English lads are getting a game for the richest teams. In the long history of bullsh*t excuses in football, this bollocks that this was done for the good of developing English football.
It is the first step in getting reserve teams of the super rich into the league. There is no other point to it, and most clubs sold out for a couple of quid. When there is a few hundred people watching Cambridge vs Everton reserves I'm sure they'll be happy.
Having only two, at most, professional divisions is hardly going to be good for the development of players either.
 
The changing of the loan laws is potentially the best thing to happen to football in years too!

Correct. If you looked at the Checkatrade rules, Non U-21 teams have to field 7 of your regular starters in the lineup which is all a massive contradiction with them saying its a competition for developmental players, for the U21 teams perhaps but even then they have a limit of being able to field 3 players over 21.

Last year was unforgivable when they rigged the group stages so that they all had Derby matches in order to boost attendances, thankfully it didn’t work. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2018 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I agree with most of that, but the Checkatrade is being used to 'normalise' reserve teams playing league clubs. Look at any articles about it so see how it is being spun by those who govern the game.
Sure, they can (and will) spin it all they like.

But in the end, the 72 EFL clubs aren't going to vote 10(?) 15(?) 20(?) of their own out of the League entirely to make way for EPL 'B' teams.

And if they were prepared to countenance the alternative of extending the EFL beyond 72 teams (i.e. adding a League 3), they'd surely want to do so from non-League clubs, the best of whom are already f-t, with many also being former EFL clubs in the recent past anyhow (eg Orient). 

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

The more successful the Checkatrade is in its current format, the stronger the argument for Arsenal reserves in the Conference.
Except it's not being "more successful".

Don't forget, it wasn't successful before the EPL 'B' teams were admitted (barring the 23/1 chance of getting to a Wembley final).

Indeed, my guess is that the competition was only introduced (in 1983) because the teams wanted to fill midweek dates with something, especially since the whole system of Reserve Team football had had its day anyhow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2018 at 2:35pm
As this trophy has shown, league clubs will be the turkeys that vote for Christmas as long as there is a small fee being paid.

The trophy was slightly more successful in its old format, the reason it hasn't had any success at all in this format is due to the 'B team boycott' and the fact people have been against it. As I said, the success of this tournament will legitimise reserve sides in the league. The fact it hasn't been a success, outside of the final, has been why there hasn't been any more debate around that happening. 
You are most likely correct on why the trophy was introduced, but that has little or no baring on why Southampton reserves are now competing in it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2018 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

As this trophy has shown, league clubs will be the turkeys that vote for Christmas as long as there is a small fee being paid.
Can't agree. 

That is, the fee would have to be a helluva sight bigger to compensate for the risk of losing their place in the EFL entirely. I mean, it took nearly a century before they even agreed to promotion and relegation from the Conference, and then only for two teams. (The former system of re-electing the bottom teams was essentially an "old boys" network, whereby clubs like eg Rochdale voted to re-elect Hartlepool, on the basis that they might need Hartlepool's vote to save themselves the next season).

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

The trophy was slightly more successful in its old format, the reason it hasn't had any success at all in this format is due to the 'B team boycott' and the fact people have been against it.
Sorry, I'd have said that the trophy was already dying on its arse, with the present format merely hastening its demise. 

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

As I said, the success of this tournament will legitimise reserve sides in the league. The fact it hasn't been a success, outside of the final, has been why there hasn't been any more debate around that happening.
Do you think that the recent experience of the Checkatrade is more likely to persuade the 72 FL owners to accept EPL 'B' teams, or less? (I don't expect a reply when the answer is so obvious, btw)

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

You are most likely correct on why the trophy was introduced, but that has little or no baring on why Southampton reserves are now competing in it.
The only reason why the likes of Saint's Reserves applied to be in it is because the EPL clubs are scratching around for solutions to a problem.

And the only reason why the FL permitted it is because they needed to do something to keep the competition on life-support, and no-one could come up with anything else.

Now obviously EPL clubs would love to get their 'B' teams in the FL proper, but the FL owners have no need to bolster the League in this way, seeing as it's doing reasonably OK as it is, and 'B' teams could only harm their own cause.

Indeed if there is an appetite for change amongst the FL owners, it comes from the 16 or 18 in the Championship who are threatening to break away entirely, under the guise of a "Premier League 2" (or somesuch).

But even there, everyone knows that the EPL would never buy it (why should they?), so it's more just a ruse to screw a greater share of FL TV money for themselves, at the expense of the 50-odd "smaller" teams.


Edited by Territorial - 05 Dec 2018 at 3:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2018 at 3:54pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

As this trophy has shown, league clubs will be the turkeys that vote for Christmas as long as there is a small fee being paid.
Can't agree. 

That is, the fee would have to be a helluva sight bigger to compensate for the risk of losing their place in the EFL entirely. I mean, it took nearly a century before they even agreed to promotion and relegation from the Conference, and then only for two teams. (The former system of re-electing the bottom teams was essentially an "old boys" network, whereby clubs like eg Rochdale voted to re-elect Hartlepool, on the basis that they might need Hartlepool's vote to save themselves the next season).

They shouldn't have been left near this competition. Several of the clubs held meetings with their fans about them coming in. Every club that did this were told the fans disapproved, the clubs agreed. They were thrown a few quid and the majority voted for it. 
The reason they were slow to change the system, ( thanks for patronising me, by the way), was because they were afraid of losing money. The old boys network was very much in swing. The proposals here don't usually involve anybody dropping out. It is a question of whether clubs will put short-term financial gain ahead of the long-term future of the game. I would have very little faith in any of them looking beyond the carrot being dangled. 

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

The trophy was slightly more successful in its old format, the reason it hasn't had any success at all in this format is due to the 'B team boycott' and the fact people have been against it.
Sorry, I'd have said that the trophy was already dying on its arse, with the present format merely hastening its demise. 
It was always a fourth priority, of that there is no doubt. It was largely a trophy for diehards or those taking advantage of a cheap 
ticket offer. Nobody is saying it was a thriving competition, most saw it as little more than an outside chance of a trophy and a day out. Few would have cried if it was scrapped, bar those with fond memories of winning it, but it wasn't 'dying on its arse' either. It was, to quote David Byrne, the same as it ever was. More or less.
However, since the introduction of second strings from the Superdedooper league, it has started 'dying on its arse'. Since their introduction, the average attendance, latter stages aside, has dropped by over 50%. The team I watch has broken its lowest attendance record three times in this competition in two seasons. 248 people turned up to watch Grimsby, a team with one of the loyalist (not a dig) fan bases in the league, play Sunderland u21s. Their lowest ever attendance. Etc. Etc.
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

As I said, the success of this tournament will legitimise reserve sides in the league. The fact it hasn't been a success, outside of the final, has been why there hasn't been any more debate around that happening.
Do you think that the recent experience of the Checkatrade is more likely to persuade the 72 FL owners to accept EPL 'B' teams, or less? (I don't expect a reply when the answer is so obvious, btw)

As it is dying on its arse, why are they continuing with it all? Any ideas.(Likewise, I don't expect, etc. )

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

You are most likely correct on why the trophy was introduced, but that has little or no baring on why Southampton reserves are now competing in it.
The only reason why the likes of Saint's Reserves applied to be in it is because the EPL clubs are scratching around for solutions to a problem.
And it is their problem. They created it, they can solve it. They have been too busy counting millions to have cared about the future of the game, now they are using the future of the game to further enhance their own aims.

And the only reason why the FL permitted it is because they needed to do something to keep the competition on life-support, and no-one could come up with anything else.

As has been pointed out, it is now 'dying on its arse'. Instead, Shaun Harvey is telling everyone and anyone how delighted he is with it...


Now obviously EPL clubs would love to get their 'B' teams in the FL proper, but the FL owners have no need to bolster the League in this way, seeing as it's doing reasonably OK as it is, and 'B' teams could only harm their own cause.

They had no need to let them into this sh*tshow, indeed they weren't going to, until a few quid was thrown their way. I admit it is currently a long way off, but that is largely down to the diehards turning their back on this.
B teams have harmed their cause being in this competition. Some games have been run as a match day loss and increased their chances of a day out at Wembley and a trophy. They still went for it.
We both know that there is a huge difference between this and the league, but this is certainly a stepping stone.

Indeed if there is an appetite for change amongst the FL owners, it comes from the 16 or 18 in the Championship who are threatening to break away entirely, under the guise of a "Premier League 2" (or somesuch).
The Championship is fast becoming such anyway. There are about 7-8 EPL franchises in a different world, 12 teams at the bottom of the EPL fighting to stay in it, and then 10-12 strong Championship clubs, many bolstered by the parachute payments, who are on a different financial plain to some of those at the bottom. 
But even there, everyone knows that the EPL would never buy it (why should they?), so it's more just a ruse to screw a greater share of FL TV money for themselves, at the expense of the 50-odd "smaller" teams.
100%. The same as this trophy and what it may lead too. It is in the interests of the people governing the game in England to look after the interests of the game in England. Unfortunately, since Alan Sugar held a deciding vote a quarter of a century ago, they have lost all sight of this.


Edited by pre Madonna - 06 Dec 2018 at 4:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

As this trophy has shown, league clubs will be the turkeys that vote for Christmas as long as there is a small fee being paid.
Can't agree. 

That is, the fee would have to be a helluva sight bigger to compensate for the risk of losing their place in the EFL entirely. I mean, it took nearly a century before they even agreed to promotion and relegation from the Conference, and then only for two teams. (The former system of re-electing the bottom teams was essentially an "old boys" network, whereby clubs like eg Rochdale voted to re-elect Hartlepool, on the basis that they might need Hartlepool's vote to save themselves the next season).

They shouldn't have been left near this competition. Several of the clubs held meetings with their fans about them coming in. Every club that did this were told the fans disapproved, the clubs agreed. They were thrown a few quid and the majority voted for it. 
The reason they were slow to change the system, ( thanks for patronising me, by the way), was because they were afraid of losing money. The old boys network was very much in swing. The proposals here don't usually involve anybody dropping out. It is a question of whether clubs will put short-term financial game ahead of the long-term future of the game. I would have very little faith in any of them looking beyond the carrot being dangled. 

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

The trophy was slightly more successful in its old format, the reason it hasn't had any success at all in this format is due to the 'B team boycott' and the fact people have been against it.
Sorry, I'd have said that the trophy was already dying on its arse, with the present format merely hastening its demise. 
It was always a fourth priority, of that there is no doubt. It was largely a trophy for diehards or those taking advantage of a cheap 
ticket offer. Nobody is saying it was a thriving competition, most saw it as little more than an outside chance of a trophy and a day out. Few would have cried if it was scrapped, bar those with fond memories of winning it, but it wasn't 'dying on its arse' either. It was, to quote David Byrne, the same as it ever was. More or less.
However, since the introduction of second strings from the Superdedooper league, it has started 'dying on its arse'. Since their introduction, the average attendance, latter stages aside, has dropped by over 50%. The team I watch has broken its lowest attendance record three times in this competition in two seasons. 248 people turned up to watch Grimsby, a team with one of the loyalist (not a dig) fan bases in the league, play Sunderland u21s. Their lowest ever attendance. Etc. Etc.
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

As I said, the success of this tournament will legitimise reserve sides in the league. The fact it hasn't been a success, outside of the final, has been why there hasn't been any more debate around that happening.
Do you think that the recent experience of the Checkatrade is more likely to persuade the 72 FL owners to accept EPL 'B' teams, or less? (I don't expect a reply when the answer is so obvious, btw)

As it is dying on its arse, why are they continuing with it all? Any ideas.(Likewise, I don't expect, etc. )

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

You are most likely correct on why the trophy was introduced, but that has little or no baring on why Southampton reserves are now competing in it.
The only reason why the likes of Saint's Reserves applied to be in it is because the EPL clubs are scratching around for solutions to a problem.
And it is their problem. They created it, they can solve it. They have been too busy counting millions to have cared about the future of the game, now they are using the future of the game to further enhance their own aims.

And the only reason why the FL permitted it is because they needed to do something to keep the competition on life-support, and no-one could come up with anything else.

As has been pointed out, it is now 'dying on its arse'. Instead, Shaun Harvey is telling everyone and anyone how delighted he is with it...


Now obviously EPL clubs would love to get their 'B' teams in the FL proper, but the FL owners have no need to bolster the League in this way, seeing as it's doing reasonably OK as it is, and 'B' teams could only harm their own cause.

They had no need to let them into this sh*tshow, indeed they weren't going to, until a few quid was thrown their way. I admit it is currently a long way off, but that is largely down to the diehards turning their back on this.
B teams have harmed their cause being in this competition. Some games have been run as a match day loss and increased their chances of a day out at Wembley and a trophy. They still went for it.
We both know that there is a huge difference between this and the league, but this is certainly a stepping stone.

Indeed if there is an appetite for change amongst the FL owners, it comes from the 16 or 18 in the Championship who are threatening to break away entirely, under the guise of a "Premier League 2" (or somesuch).
The Championship is fast becoming such anyway. There are about 7-8 EPL franchises in a different world, 12 teams at the bottom of the EPL fighting to stay in it, and then 10-12 strong Championship clubs, many bolstered by the parachute payments, who are on a different financial plain to some of those at the bottom. 
But even there, everyone knows that the EPL would never buy it (why should they?), so it's more just a ruse to screw a greater share of FL TV money for themselves, at the expense of the 50-odd "smaller" teams.
100%. The same as this trophy and what it may lead too. It is in the interests of the people governing the game in England to look after the interests of the game in England. Unfortunately, since Alan Sugar held a deciding vote a quarter of a century ago, they have lost all sight of this.
Your whole argument is that the Checkatrade is a "stepping stone" [sic] for 'B' teams to enter the FL etc.

Mine is that while that might have been the hope of the EPL teams (and that dipstick Shaun Harvey), there was no evidence whatever that the FL owners wanted it, they being the ones who would ultimately need to be persuaded.

And the subsequent debacle of paltry attendances, general apathy and outright fan hostility to their inclusion in the Checkatrade has surely now killed those hopes off entirely, esp since the U-21 teams are faring so badly*.

Thing is, however, if/when it is decided to discontinue the 'B' team experiment, the FL will be stuck with a tournament which is increasingly moribund, with no obvious means of reviving it.


* - Only 7 of the 18 even got out of the group stages and of those, only three got through the next knockout round (two of them on penalties), with Spurs still to play:


Edited by Territorial - 06 Dec 2018 at 4:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 4:52pm
No need to be 'sic' at all, a stepping stone is exactly how they see it.
My viewpoint is, and I believe there is enough historical evidence, including in this competition, to suggest that if enough money is put forward they would go along with reserve teams in the league. 
It is merely an opinion, but I certainly would not trust them. I would trust those who run the game even less.

Nobody will care what they do with tournament now, whatever little bit of affection that was there for it has disappeared. The plug should be pulled.

I agree, as it happens, that results, as well as the boycott, has meant that reserve teams in the league have taken a step backwards. The intentions are still there though.


Edited by pre Madonna - 06 Dec 2018 at 5:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 5:04pm
There's alot of hate towards Sunderland fans in the competition atm.

People are trying to keep the boycott going but Sunderland keep selling out their away allocations + more LOL

I'm completely sat on the fence. I want the competition to fail miserably but our support isn't helping the case.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

No need to be 'sic' at all, a stepping stone is exactly how they see it.
I used "sic" to signify that it was your chosen term.

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

My viewpoint is, and I believe there is circumstantial evidence based on past decisions by the clubs, including in this competition, to suggest that if enough money is put forward they would go along with reserve teams in the league.
The key word being "if".

Do you know how much money is being put in by the EPL and Championship clubs?

It cannot be much, seeing as how the prize money (£3m total) and broadcasting money is pretty paltry:

When you count the cost of staging games, usually in front of dreadful attendances, some of the clubs knocked out in the group stage will probably have lost money.

And that's only for a tinpot trophy which was dying anyhow. 

How much more would it take to persuade FL owners to put their own "bread and butter" (League membership) at risk? 

On top of which, when they couldn't even persuade the two biggest teams in the country, Man U and Liverpool, to even enter a team, that indicates to me that this trophy poses no actual threat to the traditional structure of League football in England.

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

It is merely an opinion, but I certainly would not trust them. I would trust those who run the game even less.
What they would like, and what they are able to achieve are two separate things.

And such has been the failure of this experiment that their ability to achieve it must be further out of their reach than ever.


Edited by Territorial - 06 Dec 2018 at 5:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 5:25pm
There is obviously no point in comparing the money spent to buy their way into this competition and what they would need to buy reserve sides into the league. It would be folly to do so. I am merely saying there is a price. That is the danger.

The failure of the experiment has been largely down to fans staying away and the results. Had both been different, it may have been a different argument.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irishmufc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 7:03pm
Excuse my ignorance here but was it this competition or some other that allowed EPL U-21 teams to compete but only up to a certain stage in the competition so that they couldn't win it?

I could be confusing this with something completely different International/LOI etc etc. 

I could also be imagining things LOL
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Great name for a tournament.  Worthless tournament gains publicity from sponsor name.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 7:14pm
Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Excuse my ignorance here but was it this competition or some other that allowed EPL U-21 teams to compete but only up to a certain stage in the competition so that they couldn't win it?

I could be confusing this with something completely different International/LOI etc etc. 

I could also be imagining things LOL
They are allowed to win it, they just can't take up the Europa League place.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 8:22pm
The irony of the tournament so far is that it claims to help develop English football players, but it's benefited the Welsh more than anyone else so far.

Swansea and Cardiff going the furthest out of the U21's in the first season and Shrewsbury going runners up last season.

FA can't change the outcomes but based on that you can tell how much of a horrifying disaster the competition has been LOL


Edited by coyne - 06 Dec 2018 at 8:23pm
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Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

The irony of the tournament so far is that it claims to help develop English football players, but it's benefited the Welsh more than anyone else so far.

Swansea and Cardiff going the furthest out of the U21's in the first season and Shrewsbury going runners up last season.

FA can't change the outcomes but based on that you can tell how much of a horrifying disaster the competition has been LOL
You do know that Shrewsbury is in England?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 8:33pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

The irony of the tournament so far is that it claims to help develop English football players, but it's benefited the Welsh more than anyone else so far.

Swansea and Cardiff going the furthest out of the U21's in the first season and Shrewsbury going runners up last season.

FA can't change the outcomes but based on that you can tell how much of a horrifying disaster the competition has been LOL
You do know that Shrewsbury is in England?

Always thought it was North Wales since it's so close to Wrexham? Ouch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 8:41pm
It is a short hop to the Welsh border alright. They have won the Welsh Cup too, as have Tranmere, Hereford and Chester. The latter being very close to Wrexham, certainly closer than Shrewsbury is.

It is definitely in England though. Joe 'Wowsers' Hart is from there, as is Charles Darwin, which disproved his own theory...


Edited by pre Madonna - 06 Dec 2018 at 8:42pm
I'm terrified, intoxicated, starry eyed and bollock naked
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