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Jack Charlton
Jack Charlton


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Points: 5817 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2023 at 1:45pm
Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

It’s the difference of being a fan of a club, and being a fan of a commercial product, which the EPL is. 
There have been 50 clubs in the PL since its inception, with only 6 of those continuously so.

So what happens when a new club is promoted to the PL? Do their fans cease to be fans of their club and start supporting the 'product' instead?

And should they get relegated again, do they revert to becoming club fans again?

And are fans of the other 22 EFL clubs somehow different again? Do they not ever want their clubs to be promoted to the PL?

Fact is, it is simplistic, indeed misleading, to characterise all fans of all PL clubs as being some sort of homogeneous mass, who all think and act alike.

Indeed, fans of any given club do not al think and act alike over different issues.
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Roy Keane
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For most football clubs. spending obscene amounts of money isn’t possible, even those in the EPL outside the petro-clubs and those backed by US investment.

You can support your club and want them to play at the highest level possible without wishing them to spend beyond their means to the point of verging on financial ruin. 
Jimmy Bullard - "Favorite band? Elastic."
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Jack Charlton
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Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

For most football clubs. spending obscene amounts of money isn’t possible, even those in the EPL outside the petro-clubs and those backed by US investment.

You can support your club and want them to play at the highest level possible without wishing them to spend beyond their means to the point of verging on financial ruin. 
German clubs fans wouldn't tolerate their clubs having owners with questionable human rights records and backgrounds. Whereas if John Wayne Gacy won a billion dollars and tried to buy Blackpool, they'd be bending over backwards to try and entice him.
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Roy Keane
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Originally posted by Hotlips_Hoolahan Hotlips_Hoolahan wrote:

Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

For most football clubs. spending obscene amounts of money isn’t possible, even those in the EPL outside the petro-clubs and those backed by US investment.

You can support your club and want them to play at the highest level possible without wishing them to spend beyond their means to the point of verging on financial ruin. 
German clubs fans wouldn't tolerate their clubs having owners with questionable human rights records and backgrounds. Whereas if John Wayne Gacy won a billion dollars and tried to buy Blackpool, they'd be bending over backwards to try and entice him.

All true. 
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Liam Brady
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Originally posted by Hotlips_Hoolahan Hotlips_Hoolahan wrote:

Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

For most football clubs. spending obscene amounts of money isn’t possible, even those in the EPL outside the petro-clubs and those backed by US investment.

You can support your club and want them to play at the highest level possible without wishing them to spend beyond their means to the point of verging on financial ruin. 
German clubs fans wouldn't tolerate their clubs having owners with questionable human rights records and backgrounds. Whereas if John Wayne Gacy won a billion dollars and tried to buy Blackpool, they'd be bending over backwards to try and entice him.
File:FC-Bayern-München-logo-1938-1945.jpg
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Ray Houghton
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Originally posted by Borussia Borussia wrote:

Originally posted by Hotlips_Hoolahan Hotlips_Hoolahan wrote:

Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

For most football clubs. spending obscene amounts of money isn’t possible, even those in the EPL outside the petro-clubs and those backed by US investment.

You can support your club and want them to play at the highest level possible without wishing them to spend beyond their means to the point of verging on financial ruin. 
German clubs fans wouldn't tolerate their clubs having owners with questionable human rights records and backgrounds. Whereas if John Wayne Gacy won a billion dollars and tried to buy Blackpool, they'd be bending over backwards to try and entice him.

All true. 


Bayern fans protested about the clubs sponsorship with Qatar on several occasions pre Winter break. Club President Uli Hoeneß is a regular target for the fans (and there is no love lost between them). Both Bayern's mens and womens team both travelled there for a winter training camp as well

http://www.ran.de/fussball/bundesliga/news/fc-bayern-muenchen-werder-bremen-fans-kritik-banner-botschafter-katar-wm-161496
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Roy Keane
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Am anything but a fan of Bayern but the history and story behind that badge is fairly well known. 
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Jack Charlton
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Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

For most football clubs. spending obscene amounts of money isn’t possible, even those in the EPL outside the petro-clubs and those backed by US investment.

You can support your club and want them to play at the highest level possible without wishing them to spend beyond their means to the point of verging on financial ruin. 

How many current PL clubs are "verging on financial ruin"? And how many former PL clubs have been "financially ruined"?

And for all that the game is dominated at the top end by a Big Six (Seven?), don't you think that preferable to domination by a Big One (eg France, Germany) or a Big Two (eg Spain, Scotland)? And that's before noting that the Big teams aren't set in stone (eg Everton out, Newcastle in), while other clubs like eg Leeds or Villa might hope to "crash the party" if ever they got their act together properly.

Fact is, English football manages to support over 100 f-t professional clubs - far more than otherwise comparable countries like Spain, France, Italy and (ahem) Germany, with most of them over a century old and still playing in or by their original town or city.

Nor does the game's continuing expansion show any sign of slowing, never mind reversing, even while half the rest of the country is going to the dogs.

None of which is to deny that the game at all levels also has its problems - of course it does. But compared to where it was 30 or 40 years ago, it is in infinitely better shape in almost every respect. And imo in better shape than leagues in other countries right now, including the Bundesliga.
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Roy Keane
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Anyways, back to what this thread is supposed to be about. Hoping to make it to my first game at the Millerntor on Sunday (assuming my ticket shows up!) and tick another BL ground off the list!
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Jack Charlton
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

For most football clubs. spending obscene amounts of money isn’t possible, even those in the EPL outside the petro-clubs and those backed by US investment.

You can support your club and want them to play at the highest level possible without wishing them to spend beyond their means to the point of verging on financial ruin. 

How many current PL clubs are "verging on financial ruin"? And how many former PL clubs have been "financially ruined"?

And for all that the game is dominated at the top end by a Big Six (Seven?), don't you think that preferable to domination by a Big One (eg France, Germany) or a Big Two (eg Spain, Scotland)? And that's before noting that the Big teams aren't set in stone (eg Everton out, Newcastle in), while other clubs like eg Leeds or Villa might hope to "crash the party" if ever they got their act together properly.

Fact is, English football manages to support over 100 f-t professional clubs - far more than otherwise comparable countries like Spain, France, Italy and (ahem) Germany, with most of them over a century old and still playing in or by their original town or city.

Nor does the game's continuing expansion show any sign of slowing, never mind reversing, even while half the rest of the country is going to the dogs.

None of which is to deny that the game at all levels also has its problems - of course it does. But compared to where it was 30 or 40 years ago, it is in infinitely better shape in almost every respect. And imo in better shape than leagues in other countries right now, including the Bundesliga.



Plenty of current and ex EPL clubs there have been in administration. A hell of a lot more have struggled. Plenty of good things about the EPL but your constant hard on for it is a bit embarrassing.
 




Bournemouth1997−
Crystal Palace1998July 2000
Chester CityOctober 1998July 1999
Portsmouth19981999
Hull City7 February 200112 March 2001
Queens Park Rangers2 April 200117 November 2002
Bury1 March 2002−
Halifax Town9 April 2002March 2003
Bradford City16 May 20021 August 2002
Notts CountyJune 2002December 2003
Barnsley3 October 200225 October 2003
Leicester City21 October 200216 November 2004
Port Vale16 December 20022003
York City18 December 200226 March 2003
Derby County20 October 200320 October 2003
Ipswich Town10 February 200330 May 2003
Wimbledon5 June 200321 June 2004 (As MK Dons)
Oldham AthleticAugust 200326 May 2004
Darlington23 December 200326 May 2004
Bradford City27 February 200410 December 2004
Wrexham3 December 20043 August 2006
Cambridge United29 April 200522 July 2005
Rotherham United13 May 2006???
Crawley Town5 June 200610 August 2007
Boston United25 April 200720 May 2008
Leeds United4 May 200711 July 2007
Luton Town22 November 200728 July 2008
Bournemouth8 February 200818 July 2008
Rotherham United18 March 20082008
Halifax Town26 March 200813 June 2008
Darlington25 February 20097 August 2009
Southampton2 April 20098 July 2009
Stockport County30 April 200918 June 2010
Chester City17 May 200910 March 2010
Northwich Victoria15 May 200916 May 2010
Farsley Celtic30 June 200910 March 2010
Salisbury City3 September 200926 February 2010
Weymouth28 October 200927 November 2009
Crystal Palace26 January 201020 August 2010
Portsmouth26 February 201024 October 2010
Plymouth Argyle4 March 201131 October 2011
Rushden and Diamonds7 July 20118 July 2011
Darlington3 January 201221 June 2012
Portsmouth17 February 201219 April 2013
Port Vale9 March 201220 November 2012
Coventry City21 March 201314 June 2013
Aldershot Town2 May 201331 July 2014
Bolton Wanderers13 May 201928 August 2019
Bury18 July 2019CVA terminated on 9 March 2020; new CVA sought.
Rhyl27 April 202027 April 2020
Wigan Athletic1 July 202030 March 20
Bury27 November 2020–
Derby County22 September 2021–
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Jack Charlton
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Originally posted by Borussia Borussia wrote:

Anyways, back to what this thread is supposed to be about. Hoping to make it to my first game at the Millerntor on Sunday (assuming my ticket shows up!) and tick another BL ground off the list!

Been there a couple of times pre covid, dying to go back. Dead jealous of ya.
Chips don't bounce
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Originally posted by Hotlips_Hoolahan Hotlips_Hoolahan wrote:

Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

For most football clubs. spending obscene amounts of money isn’t possible, even those in the EPL outside the petro-clubs and those backed by US investment.

You can support your club and want them to play at the highest level possible without wishing them to spend beyond their means to the point of verging on financial ruin. 
German clubs fans wouldn't tolerate their clubs having owners with questionable human rights records and backgrounds. Whereas if John Wayne Gacy won a billion dollars and tried to buy Blackpool, they'd be bending over backwards to try and entice him.

LOL
It would damage this forums' reputation
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Ray Houghton
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Originally posted by drog addict drog addict wrote:

Originally posted by Borussia Borussia wrote:

Anyways, back to what this thread is supposed to be about. Hoping to make it to my first game at the Millerntor on Sunday (assuming my ticket shows up!) and tick another BL ground off the list!

Been there a couple of times pre covid, dying to go back. Dead jealous of ya.

Just looked at the 2BL Table
Rostock in 9th with 21 points. 
Magdeburg in 18th last place with 17.
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Jack Charlton
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Originally posted by thebronze14 thebronze14 wrote:

Plenty of current and ex EPL clubs there have been in administration. A hell of a lot more have struggled. Plenty of good things about the EPL but your constant hard on for it is a bit embarrassing.
Re the above, as someone who has now been to more than 100 league grounds in almost every part of England over the last 4 decades and at all levels, I can assure you that I am a fan of Englush football generally, and not just the PL.
And as for the PL, I would never deny the many flaws which it displays - open another thread if you want to discuss those.

However, in the context of this thread, I merely wondered that if the PL continues to pull away from the BL, both on and off the pitch, then how long before, fan opposition notwithstanding, some of its clubs begin to question the 50%+1 rule which is increasingly constraining their ability to raise and employ the capital needed to keep up with other leagues, especially the PL.

As for the table you supplied, almost a third of those (the ones at the top) were EFL clubs which went into administration 20 years ago following a single event, the sudden collapse of ITV Digital .

Whilst many more are are lower- or non-league clubs which have never been near the PL, nor never will. (I mean, Farsley Celtic? Salisbury City? Weymouth?)

And of those few remaining who have appeared in the  PL, not one (barring maybe Leicester?) could ever have been considered to be established.

And now let's get back to German football, shall we, namely to see what respected football economist Stefan Szymanski (also Daniel Weimar) has to say on the topic of financial stability - knock yourself out!

"There is a common perception that the German football system is financially more stable than other European football league systems. However, we show that the German football pyramid is no more immune to the problem of insolvency than other European football league pyramids. We provide evidence to show that insolvency occurs in German football at a frequency comparable to the English and French leagues. We also show that the pattern of insolvency is consistent with the experience of English and French football identified in Szymanski (2017) and Scelles et al. (2018)"


P.S. I've just noticed that you are a Derry City fan - fair dues, you likely know rather more about football clubs going into Administration than me! Wink

Edited by Territorial - 01 Feb 2023 at 10:08pm
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Liam Brady
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Originally posted by drog addict drog addict wrote:

[QUOTE=Borussia]Anyways, back to what this thread is supposed to be about. Hoping to make it to my first game at the Millerntor on Sunday (assuming my ticket shows up!) and tick another BL ground off the list!

Been there a couple of times pre covid, dying to go back. Dead jealous of ya.
[/QUOTE

Class, my favourite ground. Good result last week so hopefully start climbing the table. 
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Jack Charlton
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(Sorry, omitted to include this further extract from the above paper - my emphasis)

"In this paper we identify 119 football club insolvencies across the top five tiers of the German pyramid that have occurred since 1994. The performance of the top clubs depends to some extent on the financial viability of lower tier clubs, because lower division clubs are incubators of talent in the national football system and every club contributes to talent identification in some way (Göke et al., 2014; Prinz & Weimar, 2018; Wallrafen et al., 2018).
Moreover, due to the system of promotion and relegation, more than one third of the insolvencies we identify relate to clubs that had played in one or both of the top two divisions over the previous twenty years.
The focus on the financial stability of clubs currently playing in the top two tiers of football appears to have created biased perceptions about the financial health of clubs in the German football pyramid as a whole."

Not so different from English football at all, is it?
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Ray Houghton
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The semi finalists in the Pokal are
Union, Leipzig, Stuttgart & Bayern
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Roy Keane
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

(Sorry, omitted to include this further extract from the above paper - my emphasis)

"In this paper we identify 119 football club insolvencies across the top five tiers of the German pyramid that have occurred since 1994. The performance of the top clubs depends to some extent on the financial viability of lower tier clubs, because lower division clubs are incubators of talent in the national football system and every club contributes to talent identification in some way (Göke et al., 2014; Prinz & Weimar, 2018; Wallrafen et al., 2018).
Moreover, due to the system of promotion and relegation, more than one third of the insolvencies we identify relate to clubs that had played in one or both of the top two divisions over the previous twenty years.
The focus on the financial stability of clubs currently playing in the top two tiers of football appears to have created biased perceptions about the financial health of clubs in the German football pyramid as a whole."

Not so different from English football at all, is it?

It is because German reunification had a massive impact on clubs - 1994 was a time where many old GDR clubs were struggling for identity, and struggling to know if they had a future. 
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