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Territorial 
Jack Charlton 
Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
 Posted: 04 Mar 2021 at 7:28pm |
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Italy staged the World Cup. The participating teams chose where they were going to be based. And ROI chose to base themselves in Malta, where they rented the facilities. If they had had an overnight in eg Heathrow before the flight out to the continent, that wouldn't have made England "hosts" either. The simple fact is, the bid which offers the best overall package, which includes the provision of modern, conveniently located training facilities, should get the gig. Thereafter teams may rent, or not rent, the facilities on offer in the host countries as they choose. But if you have difficulty comprehending that relatively simple concept, maybe you should stick to pub quizzes, where at least you can have a guess.
 Edited by Territorial - 04 Mar 2021 at 7:31pm |
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Territorial
Jack Charlton
Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
Posted: 04 Mar 2021 at 7:36pm |
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There is a difference between "equal" and "equitable".
What other involvement could there be? Would people on here prefer it if eg Casement was rebuilt so as to stage games in Belfast, meaning fewer games at the AVIVA?
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Terzino
500 Club la la la 
Joined: 06 Apr 2016 Status: Offline Points: 659 |
Posted: 04 Mar 2021 at 11:03pm |
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As a proper World Cup bid this makes no sense. Not everyone will be allowed to qualify automatically and there'll be no games in the North as things stand.
It seems more a PR exercise for the Tories. A classic case of using something people like, i.e. football, and combining it with something people dislike, i.e. the Conservatives, in an effort to improve the image of the latter. They can try to use this bid as a kind of "Britain better together", and even if it fails they can blame dodgy foreigners for it. Having said that, this should be used by the FAI and IFA in an effort to improve the quality of football grounds. At the very least, there should be a new Dalymount Park and a new Windsor Park. If, in the future, there is a Celtic League or whatever, such stadia will allow Dublin and Belfast clubs to easily take part.
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Baldrick
Robbie Keane
Peyton-tly Pedantic Joined: 18 Sep 2008 Location: Ireland Status: Online Points: 32731 |
Posted: 04 Mar 2021 at 11:18pm |
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a new dalymount park now that’s a great idea. Someone should have thought of that before. They should get on to Dublin City Council maybe
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AKA pedantic kunt
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Territorial
Jack Charlton
Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
Posted: 05 Mar 2021 at 12:05am |
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Once FIFA decided to expand the tournament beyond 32 teams/8 venues, then they had to allow multiple hosts, otherwise they'd have been confining the countries able to host it to the same dozen or so, time after time. Meaning countries like (ahem) ROI would never get a chance to stage games, along with almost all of the rest of the world.
Wha? This is the work of the (English) FA, who have been forced to rope in the assistance of the other 4 "home" associations if their bid is to have any chance of succeeding. The government has pitched in £2.3m for a feasibility study, and if it looks like a bid could be a goer, then they'll row in behind it, as would any other government in any country anywhere in the world. But on the basis that "Success has many Fathers, but Failure is an Orphan", you can be damned sure that if it should look like failing, they'll back off. Just like any other government in any other country anywhere in the world.
Of course, that is one of the prime reasons why Associations bid for tournaments. And FIFA themselves look to gain a legacy for their Members long after the tournament is over. But that legacy isn't just about shiny new stadia, welcome though they may* be. There are all sorts of other spin-offs, including eg improved training facilities, in the overall context of increasing support for football in the host countries generally. * - Some, of course, turn out to be White Elephants.
Er, we already have a new Windsor Park, since completion of the rebuild in October 2016: Unfortunately we missed a trick in not having a bigger capacity and it would not be possible to expand it to the required 40k for WCF games, or anything near it. Nor are we going to knock down a new stadium and rebuild a much bigger one which would possibly only be full as few as 2 or 3(?) times a year. And since there is no real justification for a new 40k football stadium elsewhere in NI, a modern all-purpose training base, for the use of the whole footballing community in NI after 2030, would be a much better use of World Cup money.
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Terzino
500 Club la la la
Joined: 06 Apr 2016 Status: Offline Points: 659 |
Posted: 05 Mar 2021 at 5:23pm |
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Events like this are used by governments and regimes across the world as a means to boost their standing with the public.
England could host this alone. They don't need anybody else. Just pay the right people and it would be theirs. The Republic brings nothing to the table. We've lost bids to host the Euros and the Rugby World Cup previously, as evidence of that. Bringing in others will help Boris and the Tories though. A successful World Cup bid could be the difference with maintaining the Union. Boris is a Grand Projet type of leader. And that's why I expect this bid to be successful. He'll pay the bribes, because he knows what a World Cup will do for his public image. And I know about the Windsor Park upgrade. But what I'm talking about would be a brand new stadium, and even a sports campus to go with it. 40,000 seater in Belfast, that can be modified after the World Cup for safe standing. Design it to host everything from concerts to Ulster Rugby matches to Europa League Finals. Even have it so that the seating can be removed / rearranged to host the Ulster Gaelic Football Final. There's no way the North should settle for training facilities when Boris will be splashing the cash. If there is some kind of Celtic League in the future, the stadium will be ready, and it can also be used for an improved bid to host the Ruby World Cup.
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Territorial
Jack Charlton
Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
Posted: 05 Mar 2021 at 7:29pm |
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Yes. So far so good.
Er, bad and all as things are, the UK isn't Russia or Qatar - Boris will be much more mindful of things like this from last month: "French ex-President Nicolas Sarkozy has been sentenced to three years in jail, two of them suspended, for corruption. He was convicted of trying to bribe a judge in 2014." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56237818
England would never be awarded the tournament on it's own. That's what they learnt from the last time they bid - and failed embarrassingly.
The FAI brings a vote in UEFA/FIFA, as do the SFA, FAW and IFA. And votes bring influence and lobbying power. Which is why the FA has them all on board - it's how these things work.
Really? Even if the bid did succeed (huge "if"), the finals are still another 9 years off. No politician stakes his/her reputation that far off, in fact most of them don't think much beyond 9 days ahead. If nothing else, they don't want to be the one who starts signing the big cheques in 2023, only for his/her successor to be the one who gets to cut the ribbon in 2030 and take all the credit. (Besides which, in truth Bojo doesn't give a stuff about the Union - the Scots are just a financial drain, NI only give him trouble and as for Wales, I doubt he even knows where it is.)
Cloud Cuckoo Land. We've already been there with The Maze Stadium, which was finally pulled because the bean counters in the Dept. of Finance at Stormont pointed out that the figures don't stack up. And that was for a shared stadium for all thee sports. Since then Ulster Rugby have got their own stadium which is perfectly adequate for their needs. And as for the GAA, why would they move their (once-a-year) Ulster Final from Clones, which they own, to a stadium which they don't, and pay 20%VAT on tickets for good measure? And a EL Final? Yeah, that'd be nice. Once. Some time in the next 30 or 40 years. Meanwhile are you really saying that domestic football matches in some Celtic League which might never happen might need a 40k capacity? As for a Rugby World Cup, the time to build a stadium for that is when we actually have a chance of winning a bid, not now while it's still a pipedream. P.S. You're not Bertie Ahern by any chance? He was good with big stadium plans too!  Edited by Territorial - 05 Mar 2021 at 7:31pm |
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Terzino
500 Club la la la
Joined: 06 Apr 2016 Status: Offline Points: 659 |
Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 3:53pm |
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Come on! Nobody in England will be going to jail (or house arrest) for bribing their way to hosting the World Cup. It's pure madness to even suggest such a thing could happen.
England's failure in the past was obviously not paying the right people enough, while at the same time, letting the BBC broadcast investigations into FIFA officials. If Boris needs to muzzle the BBC, and pack suitcases full of cash himself, then that's what he will do. He'll do that because he's thinking about his legacy. Does he care about the Scots? No, but he does care that he isn't the one who allowed the Union to break apart. The Boris history books will read: Got Brexit Done, Hosted World Cup, Maintained Union. And Boris won't be caring about what the bean counters think, so you shouldn't either. If you look up "World Leaders Who Balanced the Books" you'll find it in the section entitled "Nobody Cares". And the stadium capacity of 40,000 is around the minimum that FIFA demand. So you are stuck with that. After the World Cup is over, you can make changes. It doesn't really matter. What matters is that in the design and construction phase you make sure that it is as adaptable as possible. We are living in a world where the Women's Gaelic Football Final can attract 50,000 fans. Why couldn't a big crowd be enticed to watch a football match in a state of the art facility, especially if it involved bigger teams from abroad, visiting Belfast in some kind of new format? And Bertie's Sports Campus Ireland was about the only time he showed a bit of vision. So personally, I wouldn't stop at a stadium. Every public works scheme, that can in any way be linked to this bid, should be immediately out there looking for Boris' money. An airport, rail upgrade, motorway - whatever. The notion that a training facility is all the North is worth should be dropped now.
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Territorial
Jack Charlton
Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 7:41pm |
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Whether he went to jail or not, do you honestly think he would risk his political career over the (outside) chance of getting a World Cup, esp when there's a good chance he won't still be the PM who gets to cut the ribbon and declare the tournament open (i.e. take the credit) come 2030?
So why didn't Gordon Brown offer bribes the last time England bid? Couldn't find (ahem) a brown envelope?
Belfast already has Windsor and Ravenhill, and might (stress) sometime have a new Casement. And since Casement could not even get Planning Permission for the original 38k capacity (now hoping for 34k), that won't do the trick. And even if you were prepared to knock down (the relatively new) Windsor and build there, the site
simply isn't big enough for a modern 40k stadium to FIFA World Cup
specifications. While there is absolutely no justification for adding a new 40k stadium somewhere else in Belfast in addition to the existing three. As for "making adaptations", it cost £272m just to adapt the London Olympic Stadium after 2012 for dual football and athletics use:
Any new FIFA-compliant stadium will cost £100m minimum. How many Womens' Gaelic Football Finals, or Europa League Finals, or "big teams" from abroad are you going to attract to Belfast to sell 40k tickets, just to pay the maintenance bills? Every. Single. Year. Fact is, Europe is coming down with super stadia like that, all of whom are competing to attract enough events of their own. Unless you imagine Belfast has some unique charm which eg Barcelona, Brussels or Berlin lack? (Meanwhile, Bertie's failed "vision" proves my point, not yours)
It may have escaped your attention, but we're in the midst of a pandemic right now. Wednesday's budget took spending on Covid alone to £407bn, no doubt with more to come. The Treasury has a whole lot more to worry about than eg upgrading the Derry to Belfast railway, all for the sake of a 40k stadium designed for half a dozen football matches in 2030, and 2 or 3 a season thereafter. (Btw, Belfast already has an airport. Two of them, in fact. So here's a quiz question for you, outside of London, how many other cities in the British Isles have two international airports?)
Er, I'm thinking of rather more than a mere "training facility". It includes:
All of which explains why it cost them £100m! Something like that with, say, a 5-8k stadium to be home to an IL club and the Women's International team, with the facilitiies made available for the use of the IFA, other IL clubs and the rest of the football family etc. All of which would prove far more valuable for the long term development of the game in NI than a White Elephant stadium which we only fill 3 or 4 times a year (for football matches, at least). That would be my vision - I just hope there's someone at the IFA who shares such a vision (though I'm not holding my breath) |
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Dalymount79
Liam Brady
Joined: 17 Oct 2013 Status: Online Points: 1544 |
Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 7:49pm |
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newrynyuk
Liam Brady
Joined: 29 Mar 2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1556 |
Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 2:01pm |
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So let me see if I've got this straight. If the bid is successful, we will see the strange sight of Northern Ireland automatrically qualifying to the 2030 finals as one of the host countries, but won't be actually hosting any matches? And this doesn't strike anyone as odd?
It will upset Territorial, but surely the answer is a GB and Ireland bid rather than a UK and Ireland one? The idea that Northern Ireland can be a host country because it’s providing training pitches is laughable.
Edited by newrynyuk - 07 Mar 2021 at 3:20pm |
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nvidic
Moderator Group
Joined: 03 Aug 2010 Status: Online Points: 18983 |
Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 2:42pm |
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Be amazed if they have any automatic qualification for it
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Territorial
Jack Charlton
Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 5:07pm |
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No, you haven't got it straight. I cannot see how FIFA will grant 5 automatic playing places. And even if they were prepared to do so, there is no way UEFA will allow 5 of Europe's 14 or 15 places to go to this bid. And without UEFA's support, there is no way the bid could even get awarded the tournament. Should this bid win, they might permit one automatic qualifier (presumably England as the major host?). Which is no more "odd" than eg Romania, Azerbaijan or (ahem) ROI hosting Euro 2021 without having qualified. Which example alone should alert you to the possibility of the FAI hosting 2030 World Cup Finals matches at the AVIVA, without the ROI team having qualified!
Whether you are determined to ignore NI's position as part of the UK or not, fact is, neither definition is correct. This bid is by five National Associations who are all members of FIFA. How the "sweeties" are divided up after a successful bid is up to the five.
Of course I would love to see NI gain a 40k stadium from it, but I accept that there is no justification for spending £100m+ on another stadium in addition to Ravenhill, Windsor and Casement(?), in a city of Belfast's size. Nor could any of them be enlarged, even temporarily, on any of the 3 sites. In which case, seeing as the 48 teams will each want their own training base, then Belfast is well-placed as just such a location for matches in Dublin. Of course, such a base would be more than just a few pitches etc. Rather it could form the National Training Centre for the whole of football in Northern Ireland for the next 50 years - something which is needed far more than a 40k White Elephant (imo). And to give an idea of the sort of thing I would opt for, just take a look at the FA's St.George's Park or the FFF's Centre National du Football at Clairefontaine: The FA spent £105m from new on St. George's Park, which is still less than the FFF have spent on Clairefontaine down the years. And in addition, I would incorporate a 10k (max) capacity stadium in any such centre, for the use eg of our Womens NT and our U-21 mens, whilst also providing a home for one or more of the city's IL teams.
Edited by Territorial - 07 Mar 2021 at 5:09pm |
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daithi
Roy Keane
Joined: 17 Oct 2010 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 10309 |
Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 5:46pm |
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when will the decision be made (a) if this is going to be a runner. (b) when will we know who gets it.
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Just because it's tradition does not make it right
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Terzino
500 Club la la la
Joined: 06 Apr 2016 Status: Offline Points: 659 |
Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 6:03pm |
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He wouldn't be risking his career. Corruption around hosting a World Cup is endemic, and probably regarded as worth it if the bid is successful. The likelihood of England being hosts is far better than an outside chance. I expect them to win this! And I'm glad you brought up the London Olympic Stadium, as it demonstrates the consequence free nature of dodgy dealing and football. Especially so, as Boris is right at the heart of that matter. The way things are going for him, I'm sure he confidently believes he'll get to 2030 as Prime Minister! Who knows, he might even turn up in Belfast to declare open the 40,000 seater Martin O'Neill Arena.
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Territorial
Jack Charlton
Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 6:19pm |
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"The bidding process will begin in the spring of 2022, with a final vote
for the tournament hosts to be held at the FIFA Congress in 2024."
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daithi
Roy Keane
Joined: 17 Oct 2010 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 10309 |
Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 6:21pm |
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Just because it's tradition does not make it right
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Territorial
Jack Charlton
Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 6:41pm |
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This is not Russia or Qatar. If any PM of a western democracy was found to have offered bribes over something like this, he/she would lose his/her job at a minimum. More likely prison would follow.
That is what they thought the last time they bid. They got two votes out of 24, one of them their own, the other NZ (iirc). Anyhow, the link I posted in my previous reply to 'daithi' appraises the chances of possible bids. And as it indicates, England is far from a shoo-in.
"Following a bid headed by former Olympic champion Sebastian Coe and then-Mayor of London Ken Livingstone, London was selected as the host city on 6 July 2005 [when the UK had a Labour government]".
So, you're confident England will get the 2030 World Cup, BoJo will win the next two General Elections and he will then spend £100m+ on a stadium in Belfast that the IFA aren't even asking for? And your Lottery numbers? Edited by Territorial - 07 Mar 2021 at 6:43pm |
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Britain/Ireland may bid to host World Cup 2030
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sid waddell wrote: