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Booing our players for taking a knee
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Ray Houghton
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Points: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2021 at 5:33pm
Originally posted by Borussia Borussia wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Originally posted by Borussia Borussia wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Originally posted by tetsujin1979 tetsujin1979 wrote:

Really hate the "if you can't solve everything, why do anything?" argument too. A small reduction in the messages Rashford gets doesn't solve racism, and nobody is saying it will, but it's a start

If an action even makes the tiniest amount of progress then its very much worthwhile.

But to be fair the 'taking a knee' campaign seems to be counter productive and divisive. I suspect this is due to the fact that its too heavily associated with blm who are openly Marxist, promote rioting and instead of reforming police action seek to defund it. Not everyone (black or white) support those values.

I appreciate players have made it clear as to their reasons, but at this point the 'taking a knee' is too heavily associated with them and has clearly lost its intended message.
Jaysus, how many times does somebody need to explain that taking the knee was happening long before the BLM movement happened. 

If I have to define the word 'associated' to you, it would just be embarrassing at this point.

So, if I understand you correctly you think that because people don't listen to what the players say and chose to incorrectly "associate" the gesture with something else then it should stop?


I know what you're saying Borussia and apologies for the tone of my last comment. You are of course correct that BLM and players taking the knee can be seen as exclusive of each other. And the players have said as much too.

But media personalities where wearing BLM badges when players first started taking the knee. The outlets also had BLM banners on the screen when the players were doing so also. 

So yes, people are incorrectly making the association now as the players have their own definitions.

So to answer your question, do I think the players should stop doing it just because people are misreading the message. The answer would be to continue to do it if it's making a positive difference. I can't speak for everyone but I think the intended message has been lost.
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Kevin Kilbane
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Originally posted by Borussia Borussia wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Originally posted by Borussia Borussia wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Originally posted by tetsujin1979 tetsujin1979 wrote:

Really hate the "if you can't solve everything, why do anything?" argument too. A small reduction in the messages Rashford gets doesn't solve racism, and nobody is saying it will, but it's a start

If an action even makes the tiniest amount of progress then its very much worthwhile.

But to be fair the 'taking a knee' campaign seems to be counter productive and divisive. I suspect this is due to the fact that its too heavily associated with blm who are openly Marxist, promote rioting and instead of reforming police action seek to defund it. Not everyone (black or white) support those values.

I appreciate players have made it clear as to their reasons, but at this point the 'taking a knee' is too heavily associated with them and has clearly lost its intended message.
Jaysus, how many times does somebody need to explain that taking the knee was happening long before the BLM movement happened. 

If I have to define the word 'associated' to you, it would just be embarrassing at this point.

So, if I understand you correctly you think that because people don't listen to what the players say and chose to incorrectly "associate" the gesture with something else then it should stop?


Worth also remembering that the only people who have incorrectly associate the gesture with something else are bad faith actors in the absolute cess pit that so the right wing British tabloid press and the "sport are troops" poppy brigade. And of course we as Irishmen know that they are groups whose concern could not be related to race or racist in any way, as Left Foot reminds us it is a matter of 19th century socioeconomic political theory which is of deep concern.
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So according to several people on this thread...

Lyle Taylor?

Ivan Toney?

Wilfried Zaha?

John Barnes?

Les Ferdinand?

John Terry?
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Originally posted by theworm2345 theworm2345 wrote:

So according to several people on this thread...

Lyle Taylor?

Ivan Toney?

Wilfried Zaha?

John Barnes?

Les Ferdinand?

John Terry?

Jaysis, were all those lads booing players taking the knee?
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Ray Houghton
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 According to @Jicked they are all "bad faith actors in the absolute cess pit that is the right wing" LOLLOLLOL 
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Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

 According to @Jicked they are all "bad faith actors in the absolute cess pit that is the right wing" LOLLOLLOL 
But John Barnes played on the left !!
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I do think the impact of taking the knee has been diluted somewhat but I'm also speaking from a white perspective and fortunately having to never have suffered genuine racial abuse. 

So if a black player like Ogbene says in a press conference/interview that he and the other players felt they wanted to take the knee because they feel strongly about it and may have been subject to some form of racial abuse in their lives, then that's good enough for me. 

Whatever reservations people have about it, there is no absolutely no justification to boo it. 
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Kevin Kilbane
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Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

 According to @Jicked they are all "bad faith actors in the absolute cess pit that is the right wing" LOLLOLLOL 

No need to misquote me, I was referring to the British tabloid press as being a right wing cesspit. I'm fully aware that you are not a member of the British press and not one of those bad faith actors. People, like you, who believe that this is part of a Marxist conspiracy to overthrow the British conservative majority and defund the police (though, tbf, I think it is only you raising that point) have either (i) been manipulated by those bad faith factors into believing an absurd Trumpian fantasy; or (ii) are having a tough time processing their own feelings around racial equality and how that might threaten them and so cling to this nonsense as they think it offers some sort of legitimacy.

I'm struggling to understand what your issue with taking the knee is though?

Is the knee part of a Marxist conspiracy (the Trump/Farage/Gemma O'Doherty argument)? If so you can share your deep seated concerns about 19th century socio-economic theory and why you fear it might lead to the destruction of western society. 

If your problem is that racial inequality is only a concern in the United States and/or the protests are no longer effective, perhaps you can explain to the young black sportsmen protesting in the UK why they are not, in fact, experiencing racial abuse and/or the effective means they should take to protest (bearing in mind a five second silent gesture which does not impact a game in anyway has people upset enough to boo and dust off their well-thumbed copies of Das Kapital Vols I - III).

Is it that by highlighting the continued forms of inequality and discrimination they are making a political statement and should, as the Hungarian players suggested, make do with the UEFA Respect logo? That wouldn't seem to tally with your concerns about the knee no longer being effective - do you want an effective means of highlting racism or not?



Edited by Jicked - 16 Jun 2021 at 11:56am
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Ray Houghton
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Originally posted by Jicked Jicked wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

 According to @Jicked they are all "bad faith actors in the absolute cess pit that is the right wing" LOLLOLLOL 

No need to misquote me, I was referring to the British tabloid press as being a right wing cesspit. I'm fully aware that you are not a member of the British press and not one of those bad faith actors. People, like you, who believe that this is part of a Marxist conspiracy to overthrow the British conservative majority and defund the police (though, tbf, I think it is only you raising that point) have either (i) been manipulated by those bad faith factors into believing an absurd Trumpian fantasy; or (ii) are having a tough time processing their own feelings around racial equality and how that might threaten them and so cling to this nonsense as they think it offers some sort of legitimacy.

I'm struggling to understand what your issue with taking the knee is though?

Is the knee part of a Marxist conspiracy (the Trump/Farage/Gemma O'Doherty argument)? If so you can share your deep seated concerns about 19th century socio-economic theory and why you fear it might lead to the destruction of western society. 

If your problem is that racial inequality is only a concern in the United States and/or the protests are no longer effective, perhaps you can explain to the young black sportsmen protesting in the UK why they are not, in fact, experiencing racial abuse and/or the effective means they should take to protest (bearing in mind a five second silent gesture which does not impact a game in anyway has people upset enough to boo and dust off their well-thumbed copies of Das Kapital Vols I - III).

Is it that by highlighting the continued forms of inequality and discrimination they are making a political statement and should, as the Hungarian players suggested, make do with the UEFA Respect logo? That wouldn't seem to tally with your concerns about the knee no longer being effective - do you want an effective means of highlting racism or not?


Who are you talking about? Who said it was a Marxist conspiracy? What has trump got to do with anything? Are you asking me to not misquote you and in the same sentence misquoting me? 

My only mention of Marxism was that blm are openly Marxist and that there are both black and white people don't adhere to Marxist values. Is that it? 

Who said I had an issue with taking the knee? My issue has been clearly stated that it's the lost message in taking the knee that is the issue. 

What has Das Kapital got to do with anything? Or what Hungarian players think...

You know jicked, if you can't keep up with the conversation, the polite thing would be to not join in. 

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. The only colour I care about is the green.
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Ok, let me summarise for you. BLM is a decentralised social movement to advance the goal of racial equality and to highlight racial discrimination and abuse. Claiming that they are "openly Marxist" as you've done several times is absurd. That link is being driven by the right wing press in the US and UK to discredit the movement and allows the likes of you to say that a five second silent gesture is now "counter productive and divisive" and should be binned. My point is that it is for the black sportsmen who are making the protest to decide what is productive and if they feel discriminated against. 

If you boo the knee because you think it is part of a BLM Marxist plot you are unquestionably an idiot (I appreciate you said you wouldn't do so). I'd suggest most of the boos are motivated by the fear/anger of racist idiots rather than coming from fear of a Marxist uprising or being some sort of misguided suggestion that their protest would be more effective if made in another way.

Good luck.


Edited by Jicked - 16 Jun 2021 at 1:19pm
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Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Originally posted by Jicked Jicked wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

 According to @Jicked they are all "bad faith actors in the absolute cess pit that is the right wing" LOLLOLLOL 

No need to misquote me, I was referring to the British tabloid press as being a right wing cesspit. I'm fully aware that you are not a member of the British press and not one of those bad faith actors. People, like you, who believe that this is part of a Marxist conspiracy to overthrow the British conservative majority and defund the police (though, tbf, I think it is only you raising that point) have either (i) been manipulated by those bad faith factors into believing an absurd Trumpian fantasy; or (ii) are having a tough time processing their own feelings around racial equality and how that might threaten them and so cling to this nonsense as they think it offers some sort of legitimacy.

I'm struggling to understand what your issue with taking the knee is though?

Is the knee part of a Marxist conspiracy (the Trump/Farage/Gemma O'Doherty argument)? If so you can share your deep seated concerns about 19th century socio-economic theory and why you fear it might lead to the destruction of western society. 

If your problem is that racial inequality is only a concern in the United States and/or the protests are no longer effective, perhaps you can explain to the young black sportsmen protesting in the UK why they are not, in fact, experiencing racial abuse and/or the effective means they should take to protest (bearing in mind a five second silent gesture which does not impact a game in anyway has people upset enough to boo and dust off their well-thumbed copies of Das Kapital Vols I - III).

Is it that by highlighting the continued forms of inequality and discrimination they are making a political statement and should, as the Hungarian players suggested, make do with the UEFA Respect logo? That wouldn't seem to tally with your concerns about the knee no longer being effective - do you want an effective means of highlting racism or not?


Who are you talking about? Who said it was a Marxist conspiracy? What has trump got to do with anything? Are you asking me to not misquote you and in the same sentence misquoting me? 

My only mention of Marxism was that blm are openly Marxist and that there are both black and white people don't adhere to Marxist values. Is that it? 

Who said I had an issue with taking the knee? My issue has been clearly stated that it's the lost message in taking the knee that is the issue. 

What has Das Kapital got to do with anything? Or what Hungarian players think...

You know jicked, if you can't keep up with the conversation, the polite thing would be to not join in. 

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. The only colour I care about is the green.
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Ray Houghton
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Link to bbc artical on blm and their aims.

BBC Page also has a link to a video of Co founder Patrice Cullors saying that she is a trained Marxist.


For completeness, here is the link to the video on patrisse cullors personal YouTube channel talking about her belief n Marxism 

https://youtu.be/rEp1kxg58kE

What we're you saying about this being absurd? 

Also - booing equals racism is a reductionist view and race baiting like that should be a serious concern.



Edited by Left foot - 16 Jun 2021 at 1:46pm
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Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

I do think the impact of taking the knee has been diluted somewhat but I'm also speaking from a white perspective and fortunately having to never have suffered genuine racial abuse. 

So if a black player like Ogbene says in a press conference/interview that he and the other players felt they wanted to take the knee because they feel strongly about it and may have been subject to some form of racial abuse in their lives, then that's good enough for me. 

Whatever reservations people have about it, there is no absolutely no justification to boo it. 

Well said Irish MUFC. Sometimes it’s better to listen than talk.
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Ray Houghton
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Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Link to bbc artical on blm and their aims.

BBC Page also has a link to a video of Co founder Patrice Cullors saying that she is a trained Marxist.


For completeness, here is the link to the video on patrisse cullors personal YouTube channel talking about her belief n Marxism 

https://youtu.be/rEp1kxg58kE

What we're you saying about this being absurd? 

Also - booing equals racism is a reductionist view and race baiting like that should be a serious concern.

In your opinion, which of their goals is Marxist? And, can you explain how it is Marxist?


Edited by tetsujin1979 - 16 Jun 2021 at 3:13pm
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Originally posted by theworm2345 theworm2345 wrote:

So according to several people on this thread...

Lyle Taylor?

Ivan Toney?

Wilfried Zaha?

John Barnes?

Les Ferdinand?

John Terry?

LOL jesus wept, did I miss the bit where all those folks were in the crowd booing players kneeling? Did Zaha stop taking the knee and go round booing the lads that were while he was on the pitch? 

I'd be interested to know how Zaha feels about it now that a significant amount of fans in England are booing it. I can understand it feeling diluted and a bit of an empty gesture with no crowds, but sections of supporters booing it gives it a bit more meaning again imo. I can totally understand folks feeling like it has been diluted but none of them are saying there's no issues with racism in football, or the UK as a whole, which is the whole point of the gesture from the England players POV LOLLOLLOL

folks will jump through f**king hoops to try justify their own nonsense
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Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

I do think the impact of taking the knee has been diluted somewhat but I'm also speaking from a white perspective and fortunately having to never have suffered genuine racial abuse. 

So if a black player like Ogbene says in a press conference/interview that he and the other players felt they wanted to take the knee because they feel strongly about it and may have been subject to some form of racial abuse in their lives, then that's good enough for me. 

Whatever reservations people have about it, there is no absolutely no justification to boo it. 

Spot on ClapClapClap
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Originally posted by gspain gspain wrote:

Listening to Newstalk earlier and they were speculating that a minority of our fans could boo our players for taking a knee in September.

I was livid and hadn't even considered the possibility.  Just seen though that even more Scottish fans (42% v 39%) are opposed to their team doing it than England fans.  

Bad enough as it is to listen to opposing fans booing our players it would be a thousand times worse if any of our own did it.  Anyone think it is going to happen?  My own thoughts are no way and really hope I'm right.        

We have a hell of a lot of idiots following Ireland. 

Look at how many were cheering Delaney in Aarhus 
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Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

I do think the impact of taking the knee has been diluted somewhat but I'm also speaking from a white perspective and fortunately having to never have suffered genuine racial abuse. 

So if a black player like Ogbene says in a press conference/interview that he and the other players felt they wanted to take the knee because they feel strongly about it and may have been subject to some form of racial abuse in their lives, then that's good enough for me. 

Whatever reservations people have about it, there is no absolutely no justification to boo it. 


100%.  

 I suspect players would be happy enough if there was an orderly wind down of the practice.  First home game of the season or opening game of a major tournament. 
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