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OohAah... 
Ray Houghton
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 Posted: 22 Apr 2024 at 4:48pm |
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Wave the western world flag of democracy to justify military profiteering all you want. I have pointed out with or without democracy you end up with the same alienated voter from military profiteering
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Het-field
Roy Keane
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Posted: 22 Apr 2024 at 5:04pm |
 OohAah... wrote:
Wave the western world flag of democracy to justify military profiteering all you want. I have pointed out with or without democracy you end up with the same alienated voter from military profiteering |
That’s nonsense. Sorry, I’ve engaged with you a lot in the past months and have often profoundly disagreed but maintained a willing spirit of debate. I’m not justifying military profiteering, I’m saying that Russia is not a democracy. And the outcomes aren’t the same. In America, a war hungry government can be sacked. Not the same in Russia.
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OohAah...
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 22 Apr 2024 at 5:15pm |
Can it though. Look at history of of the 2 party system in America. Either side as willing as the other to engage the War Machine in whatever overseas folly it decides. I see it as a seperate entity to what goes on in elections. It itself is not electable and the governement is always bowing to it. the war machine is not electable.
So again same effect. And im not shirking from a debate on the subject I just dont see how it isnt obvious.
So the reason I am linking it to military profiteering is becasue in this instance this 61 billion( most of) thats where it will be spent.
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Het-field
Roy Keane
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Posted: 22 Apr 2024 at 5:24pm |
OohAah... wrote:
Can it though. Look at history of of the 2 party system in America. Either side as willing as the other to engage the War Machine in whatever overseas folly it decides. I see it as a seperate entity to what goes on in elections. It itself is not electable and the governement is always bowing to it. the war machine is not electable.
So again same effect. And im not shirking from a debate on the subject I just dont see how it isnt obvious.
So the reason I am linking it to military profiteering is becasue in this instance this 61 billion( most of) thats where it will be spent. |
And we can actually point out that the check and balance held up that payment by almost a year. There is no effective opposition in Russia. They live in exile, or are dead. The two-party system isn’t great, but it’s not rigged in the way the Russian system is.
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OohAah...
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 22 Apr 2024 at 5:38pm |
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Can it though. Look at history of of the 2 party system in America. Either side as willing as the other to engage the War Machine in whatever overseas folly it decides. I see it as a seperate entity to what goes on in elections. It itself is not electable and the governement is always bowing to it. the war machine is not electable.
So again same effect. And im not shirking from a debate on the subject I just dont see how it isnt obvious.
So the reason I am linking it to military profiteering is becasue in this instance this 61 billion( most of) thats where it will be spent. |
And we can actually point out that the check and balance held up that payment by almost a year. There is no effective opposition in Russia. They live in exile, or are dead. The two-party system isn’t great, but it’s not rigged in the way the Russian system is. |
Grand, and I agree Russia isnt a democracy. thats not my point.
the war machine is not electable. The government answers to it. Not the voter.
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Het-field
Roy Keane
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Posted: 22 Apr 2024 at 5:39pm |
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Can it though. Look at history of of the 2 party system in America. Either side as willing as the other to engage the War Machine in whatever overseas folly it decides. I see it as a seperate entity to what goes on in elections. It itself is not electable and the governement is always bowing to it. the war machine is not electable.
So again same effect. And im not shirking from a debate on the subject I just dont see how it isnt obvious.
So the reason I am linking it to military profiteering is becasue in this instance this 61 billion( most of) thats where it will be spent. |
And we can actually point out that the check and balance held up that payment by almost a year. There is no effective opposition in Russia. They live in exile, or are dead. The two-party system isn’t great, but it’s not rigged in the way the Russian system is. |
Grand, and I agree Russia isnt a democracy. thats not my point.
the war machine is not electable. The government answers to it. Not the voter. |
The voter has free will. The voter has primary elections and the voter has general elections. This is in the US mind. So they can end it. Putin’s actions in Ukraine are unilateral and he is answerable to nobody, and has given himself more time to continue.
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eireland
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 22 Apr 2024 at 5:43pm |
OohAah... wrote:
Net effect is the same lads. and you cant argue that. Pick away at the use of the word democracy all you want. 2 proftable military machines where the electorate has no say |
How is it the same? Has American invaded Mexico or Canada yet? That would be an equal bet result? Is president Bush ruling with an iron fist after 20 years in power and no end in sight?
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OohAah...
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 22 Apr 2024 at 9:18pm |
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Net effect is the same lads. and you cant argue that. Pick away at the use of the word democracy all you want. 2 proftable military machines where the electorate has no say |
How is it the same? Has American invaded Mexico or Canada yet? That would be an equal bet result? Is president Bush ruling with an iron fist after 20 years in power and no end in sight? |
Do you really want to go down the route of talking about Central and south American countries who' had political differemce of opinion with the US
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OohAah...
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 22 Apr 2024 at 9:21pm |
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Can it though. Look at history of of the 2 party system in America. Either side as willing as the other to engage the War Machine in whatever overseas folly it decides. I see it as a seperate entity to what goes on in elections. It itself is not electable and the governement is always bowing to it. the war machine is not electable.
So again same effect. And im not shirking from a debate on the subject I just dont see how it isnt obvious.
So the reason I am linking it to military profiteering is becasue in this instance this 61 billion( most of) thats where it will be spent. |
And we can actually point out that the check and balance held up that payment by almost a year. There is no effective opposition in Russia. They live in exile, or are dead. The two-party system isn’t great, but it’s not rigged in the way the Russian system is. |
Grand, and I agree Russia isnt a democracy. thats not my point.
the war machine is not electable. The government answers to it. Not the voter. |
The voter has free will. The voter has primary elections and the voter has general elections. This is in the US mind. So they can end it. Putin’s actions in Ukraine are unilateral and he is answerable to nobody, and has given himself more time to continue. |
They do have free will, but does it really make a difference on the global scale scale. US is run by big money and military interests.
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eireland
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 22 Apr 2024 at 10:01pm |
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Net effect is the same lads. and you cant argue that. Pick away at the use of the word democracy all you want. 2 proftable military machines where the electorate has no say |
How is it the same? Has American invaded Mexico or Canada yet? That would be an equal bet result? Is president Bush ruling with an iron fist after 20 years in power and no end in sight? |
Do you really want to go down the route of talking about Central and south American countries who' had political differemce of opinion with the US |
You've gone further south though. Like I said get back to me when the US Invades Canada or Mexico like Putin I'm Ukraine.
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Het-field
Roy Keane
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Posted: 22 Apr 2024 at 10:46pm |
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Can it though. Look at history of of the 2 party system in America. Either side as willing as the other to engage the War Machine in whatever overseas folly it decides. I see it as a seperate entity to what goes on in elections. It itself is not electable and the governement is always bowing to it. the war machine is not electable.
So again same effect. And im not shirking from a debate on the subject I just dont see how it isnt obvious.
So the reason I am linking it to military profiteering is becasue in this instance this 61 billion( most of) thats where it will be spent. |
And we can actually point out that the check and balance held up that payment by almost a year. There is no effective opposition in Russia. They live in exile, or are dead. The two-party system isn’t great, but it’s not rigged in the way the Russian system is. |
Grand, and I agree Russia isnt a democracy. thats not my point.
the war machine is not electable. The government answers to it. Not the voter. |
The voter has free will. The voter has primary elections and the voter has general elections. This is in the US mind. So they can end it. Putin’s actions in Ukraine are unilateral and he is answerable to nobody, and has given himself more time to continue. |
They do have free will, but does it really make a difference on the global scale scale. US is run by big money and military interests. |
Looking at it on a global scale is a mistake, as democracy has its own inherent value. Democratic systems will have their issues, but there is a fundamental difference to countries with terminal leaders, many of whom have zero interest in human rights or freedoms. Others don’t even try to create the veneer of a free and fair electoral system. Assad’s Syria is a prime example of that, and it is backed to the hilt by Russia.
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OohAah...
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 23 Apr 2024 at 10:35am |
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Net effect is the same lads. and you cant argue that. Pick away at the use of the word democracy all you want. 2 proftable military machines where the electorate has no say |
How is it the same? Has American invaded Mexico or Canada yet? That would be an equal bet result? Is president Bush ruling with an iron fist after 20 years in power and no end in sight? |
Do you really want to go down the route of talking about Central and south American countries who' had political differemce of opinion with the US |
You've gone further south though. Like I said get back to me when the US Invades Canada or Mexico like Putin I'm Ukraine. |
But why would they? They are politically aligned. A bit like Belarus and Russia. So look at countries nearby thay weren't politically alligned. Do I really have to mention the Cuban missile crisis?
Edited by OohAah... - 23 Apr 2024 at 10:37am
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OohAah...
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 23 Apr 2024 at 10:36am |
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Can it though. Look at history of of the 2 party system in America. Either side as willing as the other to engage the War Machine in whatever overseas folly it decides. I see it as a seperate entity to what goes on in elections. It itself is not electable and the governement is always bowing to it. the war machine is not electable.
So again same effect. And im not shirking from a debate on the subject I just dont see how it isnt obvious.
So the reason I am linking it to military profiteering is becasue in this instance this 61 billion( most of) thats where it will be spent. |
And we can actually point out that the check and balance held up that payment by almost a year. There is no effective opposition in Russia. They live in exile, or are dead. The two-party system isn’t great, but it’s not rigged in the way the Russian system is. |
Grand, and I agree Russia isnt a democracy. thats not my point.
the war machine is not electable. The government answers to it. Not the voter. |
The voter has free will. The voter has primary elections and the voter has general elections. This is in the US mind. So they can end it. Putin’s actions in Ukraine are unilateral and he is answerable to nobody, and has given himself more time to continue. |
They do have free will, but does it really make a difference on the global scale scale. US is run by big money and military interests. |
Looking at it on a global scale is a mistake, as democracy has its own inherent value. Democratic systems will have their issues, but there is a fundamental difference to countries with terminal leaders, many of whom have zero interest in human rights or freedoms. Others don’t even try to create the veneer of a free and fair electoral system. Assad’s Syria is a prime example of that, and it is backed to the hilt by Russia.
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I agree with the difference. But do you not wonder why you end up with the same outcome? An unanswerable military machine?
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Het-field
Roy Keane
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Posted: 23 Apr 2024 at 11:22am |
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Can it though. Look at history of of the 2 party system in America. Either side as willing as the other to engage the War Machine in whatever overseas folly it decides. I see it as a seperate entity to what goes on in elections. It itself is not electable and the governement is always bowing to it. the war machine is not electable.
So again same effect. And im not shirking from a debate on the subject I just dont see how it isnt obvious.
So the reason I am linking it to military profiteering is becasue in this instance this 61 billion( most of) thats where it will be spent. |
And we can actually point out that the check and balance held up that payment by almost a year. There is no effective opposition in Russia. They live in exile, or are dead. The two-party system isn’t great, but it’s not rigged in the way the Russian system is. |
Grand, and I agree Russia isnt a democracy. thats not my point.
the war machine is not electable. The government answers to it. Not the voter. |
The voter has free will. The voter has primary elections and the voter has general elections. This is in the US mind. So they can end it. Putin’s actions in Ukraine are unilateral and he is answerable to nobody, and has given himself more time to continue. |
They do have free will, but does it really make a difference on the global scale scale. US is run by big money and military interests. |
Looking at it on a global scale is a mistake, as democracy has its own inherent value. Democratic systems will have their issues, but there is a fundamental difference to countries with terminal leaders, many of whom have zero interest in human rights or freedoms. Others don’t even try to create the veneer of a free and fair electoral system. Assad’s Syria is a prime example of that, and it is backed to the hilt by Russia.
|
I agree with the difference. But do you not wonder why you end up with the same outcome? An unanswerable military machine? |
But it’s not the same. I think the US parties have lost their way when it comes to intervention. But there was a point when it was needed and valid.
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OohAah...
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 23 Apr 2024 at 11:33am |
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Can it though. Look at history of of the 2 party system in America. Either side as willing as the other to engage the War Machine in whatever overseas folly it decides. I see it as a seperate entity to what goes on in elections. It itself is not electable and the governement is always bowing to it. the war machine is not electable.
So again same effect. And im not shirking from a debate on the subject I just dont see how it isnt obvious.
So the reason I am linking it to military profiteering is becasue in this instance this 61 billion( most of) thats where it will be spent. |
And we can actually point out that the check and balance held up that payment by almost a year. There is no effective opposition in Russia. They live in exile, or are dead. The two-party system isn’t great, but it’s not rigged in the way the Russian system is. |
Grand, and I agree Russia isnt a democracy. thats not my point.
the war machine is not electable. The government answers to it. Not the voter. |
The voter has free will. The voter has primary elections and the voter has general elections. This is in the US mind. So they can end it. Putin’s actions in Ukraine are unilateral and he is answerable to nobody, and has given himself more time to continue. |
They do have free will, but does it really make a difference on the global scale scale. US is run by big money and military interests. |
Looking at it on a global scale is a mistake, as democracy has its own inherent value. Democratic systems will have their issues, but there is a fundamental difference to countries with terminal leaders, many of whom have zero interest in human rights or freedoms. Others don’t even try to create the veneer of a free and fair electoral system. Assad’s Syria is a prime example of that, and it is backed to the hilt by Russia.
|
I agree with the difference. But do you not wonder why you end up with the same outcome? An unanswerable military machine? |
But it’s not the same. I think the US parties have lost their way when it comes to intervention. But there was a point when it was needed and valid. |
The US parties have lost their way because they arent in control. Its essentially unelectable civil service they answer to, not the people. Its a problem the world over however in the likes of the states theres a strong military element.
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Het-field
Roy Keane
By Appointment to His Majesty The King
Joined: 08 Mar 2016
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Posted: 23 Apr 2024 at 11:42am |
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Can it though. Look at history of of the 2 party system in America. Either side as willing as the other to engage the War Machine in whatever overseas folly it decides. I see it as a seperate entity to what goes on in elections. It itself is not electable and the governement is always bowing to it. the war machine is not electable.
So again same effect. And im not shirking from a debate on the subject I just dont see how it isnt obvious.
So the reason I am linking it to military profiteering is becasue in this instance this 61 billion( most of) thats where it will be spent. |
And we can actually point out that the check and balance held up that payment by almost a year. There is no effective opposition in Russia. They live in exile, or are dead. The two-party system isn’t great, but it’s not rigged in the way the Russian system is. |
Grand, and I agree Russia isnt a democracy. thats not my point.
the war machine is not electable. The government answers to it. Not the voter. |
The voter has free will. The voter has primary elections and the voter has general elections. This is in the US mind. So they can end it. Putin’s actions in Ukraine are unilateral and he is answerable to nobody, and has given himself more time to continue. |
They do have free will, but does it really make a difference on the global scale scale. US is run by big money and military interests. |
Looking at it on a global scale is a mistake, as democracy has its own inherent value. Democratic systems will have their issues, but there is a fundamental difference to countries with terminal leaders, many of whom have zero interest in human rights or freedoms. Others don’t even try to create the veneer of a free and fair electoral system. Assad’s Syria is a prime example of that, and it is backed to the hilt by Russia.
|
I agree with the difference. But do you not wonder why you end up with the same outcome? An unanswerable military machine? |
But it’s not the same. I think the US parties have lost their way when it comes to intervention. But there was a point when it was needed and valid. |
The US parties have lost their way because they arent in control. Its essentially unelectable civil service they answer to, not the people. Its a problem the world over however in the likes of the states theres a strong military element.
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Of course they are in control. Hence why the aid package that was released last week took up to a year to stop. And the people trying to stop it are not to be trusted.
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OohAah...
Ray Houghton
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Posted: 23 Apr 2024 at 11:48am |
https://www.aalep.eu/institute-study-war-isw
Please read Unelectable
And that aid package was part of a deal to provide aid to Israel. This can't be ignored.
Edited by OohAah... - 23 Apr 2024 at 11:50am
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Het-field
Roy Keane
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Posted: 23 Apr 2024 at 12:01pm |
Just read that. It’s doesn’t say anything about control of Government.
If you want, you can criticise the Israeli package on the other thread.
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